Author Topic: Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"  (Read 61439 times)

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Universe Prince

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Re: Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2008, 04:06:50 AM »

Quote
My point being that no one is saying anything about Hitler or the Nazis being examples of Christ-like behavior.

Yea, that's why Hitler and Christianity keep getting repeated in the same sentences.  Right     ::)


Pooh yi. You have no intention of paying attention, I can only conclude from your remark. Which means I've wasted my time bothering to explain anything to you. Thanks for nothing, Sirs.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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sirs

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Re: Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2008, 05:15:27 AM »
The nothing would be the continued application of Hitler with Christianity, as if they went together like PB&J.  My apologies if my point was simply too direct, and didn't have the required amount of nuance to debate
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 04:37:11 PM by sirs »
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2008, 08:21:50 AM »
Hitler's Positive Christianity was sort of like Christian Identity in that it contained the word "Christian". I fail to see why you are havig so much trouble with this.

I thought Hitler's desire to possess the "Spear of Destiny" was a far more fascinating topic, myself. How could a spear used to poke a hole in a Divine Being be considered good luck to anyone?

I wonder what the Greeks would have done had they possessed Hercules' truss?
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Rich

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Re: Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2008, 09:56:12 AM »
>>That can certainly be argued.<<

Thank you. So that's the end of the ridiculous notion that the Nazi's preached Christianity.

_JS

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Re: Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2008, 01:50:20 PM »
*sigh*

Sirs, Rich, do you even read what Prince has written? I don't understand the extremely defensive reactions in this conversation at all.

It is certainly possible to mention Hitler and Christianity in the same sentence. You should go back and read some of Hitler's speeches, he does it all the time. More than that, Fascism is a political philosophy whose intellectual founders were Christians. Christian Nationalism was a real movement in Christianity, to deny it is to deny gravity. As for the racial attitudes, the Southern Baptists taught that African-Americans were lesser beings than whites in their churches in the South well into the 1970's. I'm surprised you find that to be so strange. They even used a Biblical (though it was quite a stretch) reference and considered Africans to be the descendants of Ham and therefore not worthy of the share of creation that whites were entitled to.

The point being that Germany was not the only nation susceptible to such notions. That was my point entirely. What is with the hostility? I'm a Christian and I believe that UP is as well. Neither of us is "attacking Christianity." Y'all make a big deal out of "personal responsibility." Yet, owning up to one's past and one's mistakes is a part of personal responsibility. Hell, I'd even go as far as to say it is the essence of personal responsibility. As Christians and Americans, when will we own up to our mistakes? Or shall we continue to deny them? How will we learn if we do?

Here are some quick quotes I found. I do suggest reading Mein Kampf, as I said it is interesting. How can we avoid Fascism if we don't understand it?

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My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows.

- Adolf Hitler Speech in Munich 12 April 1922 (note that he references 3 Biblical passages in this text)

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In the Bible we find the text, 'That which is neither hot nor cold will I spew out of my mouth.' This utterance of the great Nazarene has kept its profound validity until the present day.

- Hitler, speech in Munich 13 April 1923 (he's referencing Revelations 3:16)

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There are three words which many use without a thought which for us are no catch-phrases: Love, Faith, and Hope.... We are fanatical in our love for our people....

We have faith in the rights of our people, the rights which have existed time out of mind. We protest against the view that every other nation should have rights - and we have none. We must learn to make our own this blind faith in the rights of our people, in the necessity of devoting ourselves to the service of these rights; we must make our own the faith that gradually victory must be granted us if only we are fanatical enough. And from this love and from this faith there emerges for us the idea of hope. When others doubt and hesitate for the future of Germany - we have no doubts. We have both the hope and the faith that Germany will and must once more become great and mighty.

We have faith that one day Heaven will bring the Germans back into a Reich over which there shall be no Soviet star, no Jewish star of David, but above that Reich there shall be the symbol of German labor - the Swastika. And that will mean that the first of May has truly come.

-Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich, 1 May 1923 (he's referencing 1 Corinthians 13:13)

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We want honestly to earn the resurrection of our people through our industry, our perseverance, our will. We ask not of the Almighty 'Lord, make us free'!-- we want to be active, to work, to agree together as brothers, to strive in rivalry with one another to bring about the hour when we can come before Him and when we may ask of Him: 'Lord, Thou seest that we have transformed ourselves, the German people is not longer the people of dishonour, of shame, of war within itself, of faintheartedness and little faith: no, Lord, the German people has become strong again in spirit, strong in will, strong in endurance, strong to bear all sacrifices.' 'Lord, we will not let Thee go: bless now our fight for our freedom; the fight we wage for our German people and Fatherland.'


-Adolf Hitler, giving prayer in a speech on May Day 1933

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Among the congregations of the Protestant confessions there has arisen in the "German Christians' a movement that is filled with the determination to do justice to the great tasks of the day and has aimed at a union of the Protestant state churches and confessions. If this question is not really on the way towards a solution, in the judgement of history no false or stupid objections will be able to dispute the fact that this service was rendered by the volkisch movement at a time when, unfortunately, just as in the Roman Church, many pastors and superintendents without reason have opposed the national uprising in the most violent, indeed, often fanatical, way.

-Adolf Hitler, in a radio address on 22 July 1933




I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Universe Prince

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Re: Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2008, 03:37:05 PM »

The nothing would be the continued application of Hitler with Christianity, as if they went together like PB&J.  My apologies if my point was simply to direct, and didn't have the required amount of nuance to debate


No, that is not the problem. The problem is that your point is entirely irrelevant to the discussion, which I explained at least twice. So it's not nuance you're lacking, but if I said what you do seem to be lacking, that would be mean and probably insulting.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2008, 03:39:44 PM »

>>That can certainly be argued.<<

Thank you. So that's the end of the ridiculous notion that the Nazi's preached Christianity.


Pooh yi. No, Rich it really is not. But hey, if you want to deny historical facts, I won't attempt to stop you. Go right ahead. Just don't expect to eat at the adults' table any time soon.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2008, 03:42:01 PM »

How can we avoid Fascism if we don't understand it?


Exactly. Thank you.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

sirs

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Re: Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2008, 04:15:42 PM »

The nothing would be the continued application of Hitler with Christianity, as if they went together like PB&J.  My apologies if my point was simply to direct, and didn't have the required amount of nuance to debate


No, that is not the problem. The problem is that your point is entirely irrelevant to the discussion...

Ummm....no, it's not.  It's a cornerstone to the discussion, since so often when the topic of Hitler & Nazism comes up, the left immediately pulls christianity into the conversation, as if it has some foundation to Hitler's regime.  As I said, just because people used elements of the religion, didn't make their acts Christian oriented or Christ like.  You want to argue that Hitler used aspects of Christianity?  Fine, no one is disputing what that which they supposedly used.  What's being dealt with is the constant effort to attach Hitler/Nazism with Christianty, as if there's some intimate connection.  There isn't.  It's like a 4th cousin one removed
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Rich

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Re: Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2008, 04:21:54 PM »
UP,

Historical facts?

I see, so because the Nazis used whatever means they could think of to convince Germans they were the master race, including a perverted idea of Christianity, you believe Christianity was a driving force behind Nazi motivation? Never mind the fact that Hitler, after attempting to pervert German's to his own ends, denounced Christianity over and over again.

And UP, you're not an adult. You're a losertarian stamping his foot over in the corner dreaming of the big table that denies fools like you a seat every four years.

Don't condescend to me little miss "Christians loved Hitler."

_JS

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Re: Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2008, 04:35:56 PM »
Many Christians did like and support Hitler. More to the point, much of Fascism was supported and founded by Christians and built upon Christian Nationalism.

Quote
What's being dealt with is the constant effort to attach Hitler/Nazism with Christianty, as if there's some intimate connection.  There isn't.  It's like a 4th cousin one removed

So the Jews, Roma, and Christians who saw and wrote about this connection were just lying? Because Sirs says so?

Quote
Historical facts?

An interesting question Rich. Where are yours?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Universe Prince

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Re: Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2008, 04:40:50 PM »

It's a cornerstone to the discussion, since so often when the topic of Hitler & Nazism comes up, the left immediately pulls christianity into the conversation, as if it has some foundation to Hitler's regime.  As I said, just because people used elements of the religion, didn't make their acts Christian oriented or Christ like.


Your point is irrelevant because no one here is saying the Hitler and/or the Nazis were Christ-like. I repeat: "I don't believe anyone is trying to say Hitler was a model Christian person or that Nazism is somehow inherent in Christianity. I'm sure JS of all people is not going to be making that claim. The point is that aspects of Christianity were used as a means of controlling society, as a means of supporting the state, hence 'Christian nationalism'." And: "Arguing the Nazis' Christian nationalism was not in accordance with the teachings of Christ is nice if someone asks if it was. But in the context of this discussion, wherein Mein Kampf was being discussed, it misses the point entirely. Entirely. JS, someone who certainly has every appearance here of being Christian, and a strong Catholic no less, says the book was interesting 'Because Hitler's rise to power is a remarkable testament to Christian nationalism' and you chime in with 'Hitler was only following Christ's teachings, right?' Not the point or the meaning of JS's comment at all. Not at all." Pay attention.


What's being dealt with is the constant effort to attach Hitler/Nazism with Christianty, as if there's some intimate connection.  There isn't.  It's like a 4th cousin one removed


Your point is irrelevant because no one is doing what you're talking about. No one has to attach Hitler or the Nazis to Christianity, because Hitler and the Nazis tried to do that all by themselves. If you don't like the terms "Positive Christianity" and "Christian nationalism" that is not anyone's fault but yours. No one here is creating an imaginary connection between the Nazis and Christianity. The Nazis used a form of Christian religion to control the people and to connect Christianity, the main religion of the people, to their political aims. This is historical fact. At no point does mentioning this or discussing this mean that those doing the mentioning or discussing believe the Nazis were all just good Christians following the teachings of Christ or that those doing the mentioning or discussing believe Hitler was a paragon of Christ-like virtue. It also does not mean that those doing the mentioning or discussing are attacking Christianity as somehow inherently fascist or inclined to genocide.

But the real problem here is that I should not have to explain all this to adults.



You want to argue that Hitler used aspects of Christianity?  Fine, no one is disputing what that which they supposedly used.


Rich is.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

sirs

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Re: Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2008, 04:45:54 PM »
It's a cornerstone to the discussion, since so often when the topic of Hitler & Nazism comes up, the left immediately pulls christianity into the conversation, as if it has some foundation to Hitler's regime.  As I said, just because people used elements of the religion, didn't make their acts Christian oriented or Christ like.


Your point is irrelevant because no one here is saying the Hitler and/or the Nazis were Christ-like.

I didn't say that either.  I said the implication is consistently brought up by bringing Christianity into the conversation, everytime the left starts discussing Hitler and Nazis.  Please pay attention


Quote
What's being dealt with is the constant effort to attach Hitler/Nazism with Christianty, as if there's some intimate connection.  There isn't.  It's like a 4th cousin one removed

So the Jews, Roma, and Christians who saw and wrote about this connection were just lying? Because Sirs says so?

No, because the acts of Hitler and the Nazi were in no way Christian or following that of any of Christ's teachings.  Care to show me the scripture(s) in the New Testament that has Christ advocating mass extermination & world domination??  Didn't think so.  so again, no one is arguing about Hitler, or any other nutcase perverting a religion to push their own agenda....Militant Islam is doiing that currently.  What is being argued is that there's some inferred intimate connection between Hitler's nazism & Christianity.  There just simply isn't
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

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Re: Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2008, 04:48:23 PM »

UP,

Historical facts?


Yes, Rich. Historical facts.


I see, so because the Nazis used whatever means they could think of to convince Germans they were the master race, including a perverted idea of Christianity, you believe Christianity was a driving force behind Nazi motivation?


No, I do not. And I never said, suggested or implied otherwise. No one else here did either.


Don't condescend to me little miss "Christians loved Hitler."


So long as you continue to deny historical facts because they're inconvenient to you, and to make up strawmen arguments out of thin air so you can righteously claim superiority, I'm sure most of what I say will seem condescending to you.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2008, 04:53:53 PM »
It's a cornerstone to the discussion, since so often when the topic of Hitler & Nazism comes up, the left immediately pulls christianity into the conversation, as if it has some foundation to Hitler's regime.  As I said, just because people used elements of the religion, didn't make their acts Christian oriented or Christ like.


Your point is irrelevant because no one here is saying the Hitler and/or the Nazis were Christ-like.

I didn't say that either.  I said the implication is consistently brought up by bringing Christianity into the conversation, everytime the left starts discussing Hitler and Nazis.  Please pay attention


You're inferring. The implication does not exist in this discussion. Thus, your point is irrelevant. Please pay attention as the lack of that implication has now been explained several times over.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--