Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"

[Universe Prince]

Should be early in the process made clear , like too early for the very likely misunderstanding to entrench itself.

You mean it wasn't?

Was the origional article really makeing direct comparison between Hitler and Barak Obama? Was the point of bring ing Hitler into the conversation to measure one with the other?

Well, I'd say probably so. Coulter did say, "Has anybody read this book? Inasmuch as the book reveals Obama to be a flabbergasting lunatic, I gather the answer is no. Obama is about to be our next president: You might want to take a peek. If only people had read 'Mein Kampf' ..." I would not go so far as to say she was claiming Barack Obama would be the next Hitler, but she seems to be doing her best to skirt that line. Of course, I could be entirely wrong. Her admirers have told me before that the plain and clear meaning of what she said was not what she actually meant (and that I don't get it because she is smarter than I am, which, I confess, I severely doubt).

I hope not , so what was the purpose of bringing Hitlers use of scripture into the conversation?

Huh? Uh, okay, I'll try to lay this out for you. JS mentioned he had read Mein Kampf and said it was interesting. ChristiansUnited4LessGvt asked why JS thought so. JS replied in part "Because Hitler's rise to power is a remarkable testament to Christian nationalism." That is how it happened. I must also confess that I cannot discern why JS's comment is so controversial.

I admit having believed, and apparently having been wrong in the belief, that the fact of use of Christian nationalism by Hitler and the Nazis was pretty much widely accepted. It is part of the historical record, and in even a basic examination of the Nazis' rise to power, or indeed of the rise of fascism in the 1930s, this easily seen. Or at least, it was to me. Don't misunderstand me. I'm not claiming to be smarter or more knowledgeable that anyone else here, I'm just saying, as I have looked into it, the presence of Christian nationalism seems fairly obvious to me. And while I have not read Mein Kampf as a whole, I have read excerpts. And of what I've read, many passages seem to be written as by a Christian (however misguided and/or twisted his religious ideas might have been) expounding on the importance of his faith; i.e. talking about doing "the work of the Lord", quoting scripture and discussing the importance of the church to society. So I have to say, that Hitler used Christian scripture and Christian language, that Christian nationalism was influential in the rise of the Nazis, et cetera, that these things appeared in a discussion of Mein Kampf certainly does not seem out of place or incongruent at all. Talking about Mein Kampf in any even remotely meaningful way without bringing any of that up, now that would seem incongruent.

It is in scripture that Satain uses scripture himsef when he can , a delightfully recursive concept.

No one is saying you cannot argue that Hitler was not a Christian. Even if we all accept that he was not, however, that does not alter the place of Christian nationalism in the rise of fascism in 1930s Europe. So why is mentioning it so offensive? Do Christians have something to fear from the truth? I think it is not so.

[Plane]

    Christians need to examine new ideas in the light of Christ , if Hitler was using Christian language in a perverse way he wasn't inventing anything.

[Universe Prince]

No one said otherwise.

[_JS]

You couldn't be more wrong, Js       

How so?

By the ever famous pressing of a false premice, then providing quotes/facts/scripture to refute the false premice.  The false premice in this case that sirs was somehow advocating that Christians are to judge others and then to faciltate a change in behavior to fall inline as to what we judge to be right vs wrong.  If you had payed attention, you would have seen how clearly I made it that we are to judge others actions, in order to better make our OWN decisions

In other words, we indeed are obliged to judge others and their actions, and to judge what is right vs what is wrong, what is good vs what is evil, and in no way is it hippocritic to do so

No, no, no.

There was a precise question to which you provided a precise answer, to which I disagreed with said answer.

Sirs: 5), When Christians have done "really awful things"....news flash, they're NOT Christian.

Fatman: Who gets to make that determination?  You?

SirsYes....knowing what it means to be Christian, and walk a path that Christ would advocate allows me the ability to judge when others are not.

That's black & white. You answered that you have the ability to judge who is and who is not Christian based on what actions they take. I disagreed and said so in my response to Fatman. Your response here has nothing to do with the specific question asked and answered.

[_JS]

    Christians need to examine new ideas in the light of Christ , if Hitler was using Christian language in a perverse way he wasn't inventing anything.

Indeed, and I believe that was pointed out as well.

I did not see why such great offense was taken either.

[sirs]

The problem is your wrong Js.  Your quotes/scripture/references again entail that we're not to judge who is and isn't going to heaven.  We are obliged to judge who is acting good and who isn't, who is acting Christ-like, and who isn't.  When one is not acting Christ-like, they aren't Christian.  Occasional mistakes in judgement are 1 thing.  Repetatively performing evil, sinful, nonChristian acts, does not a Christian make.  It's not rocket science

 

[_JS]

The problem is your wrong Js.  Your quotes/scripture/references again entail that we're not to judge who is and isn't going to heaven.  We are obliged to judge who is acting good and who isn't, who is acting Christ-like, and who isn't.  When one is not acting Christ-like, they aren't Christian.  Occasional mistakes in judgement are 1 thing.  Repetatively performing evil, sinful, nonChristian acts, does not a Christian make.  It's not rocket science

 

I'm simply disagreeing Sirs. We can correct another's actions, certainly. But, your theology puts limits on God's Love - even His capacity to Love. Now, I don't believe in once-saved-always-saved as some Protestants do, but I don't feel it is my place to tell others if they are or are not Christians.

It may not be rocket science, but it is certainly more than the black and white you make it out to be.

[sirs]

The problem is your wrong Js.  Your quotes/scripture/references again entail that we're not to judge who is and isn't going to heaven.  We are obliged to judge who is acting good and who isn't, who is acting Christ-like, and who isn't.  When one is not acting Christ-like, they aren't Christian.  Occasional mistakes in judgement are 1 thing.  Repetatively performing evil, sinful, nonChristian acts, does not a Christian make.  It's not rocket science

 

I'm simply disagreeing Sirs. We can correct another's actions, certainly.

I see....so basically, you're going 1 step beyone me.  You believe it's Christian to fix other people's un-Christian like ways, while I stop at prayer & living by example.  Good thing there is so-called seperation of Church & State

But, your theology puts limits on God's Love - even His capacity to Love.

Not in any way at all.  "My theology" is consistent with the free-will God has given us to live our lives as we see fit.  And if someone I can clearly see is repetatively NOT following God's edicts, I have no problem judging them not to be Christian, and I simply pray harder for them

Now, I don't believe in once-saved-always-saved as some Protestants do, but I don't feel it is my place to tell others if they are or are not Christians.

Fine.....don't.  That's your call.  You'll note that in "my theology", I'm not mandating anyone follow my lead.  Simply that we don't cross the line and say it's a Christian's place to judge who's to be saved or not.  THAT's when it's no longer "our place"

[_JS]

I see....so basically, you're going 1 step beyone me.  You believe it's Christian to fix other people's un-Christian like ways, while I stop at prayer & living by example.  Good thing there is so-called seperation of Church & State

Erm, I never said anything about "fixing other people's ways." You are under some misconception. My point comes straight from Paul's letters. Christian correction does not mean an abrogation of free will or "to fix other people's un-Christian like ways." It means to gently correct another Christian that his or her actions are inappropriate. Perhaps your confusion is with the word "correction" which in this sense is used as a parent "corrects" a child or an Abbot corrects a monk. It is done with love, not bitterness or a sense of being holier-than-thou.

Not in any way at all.  "My theology" is consistent with the free-will God has given us to live our lives as we see fit.  And if someone I can clearly see is repetatively NOT following God's edicts, I have no problem judging them not to be Christian, and I simply pray harder for them

And if your repeat offender is an addict? or mentally ill? Or suffered some other horror of which you have no idea? The truth is that you do not know what is in the heart of another.

Fine.....don't.  That's your call.  You'll note that in "my theology", I'm not mandating anyone follow my lead.  Simply that we don't cross the line and say it's a Christian's place to judge who's to be saved or not.  THAT's when it's no longer "our place"

No, you simply give yourself the mandate to dictate who is and who is not a follower of Christ. That's a powerful office you've appointed yourself. One wonders where such authority is granted. One wonders more, why such authority is desired.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I have no problem judging them not to be Christian, and I simply pray harder for them
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This brings up an interesting thought. To wit, how does one 'pray harder'?

Does one pray louder, does one use more words, does one wag their head up and down like Orthodox Jews, or try to create a callus on their forehead like Sheik Zawahiri from whacking it on the pavement of the temple? Does one pray for a longer duration?

It is unfortunate that there is no standardized scale, as with PSI in pounds per Square Inch or Newtons, or in Ohms as in amount of resistence. We could say that "He prayed for X hours at a PIL (Prayer Intensity Level) of 120.

The actual effectiveness of the prayer could mostly only be measured by God,though, as prayers are a way of getting God to move on some issue. Still, if God is always focused on everything happening everywhere, and is already infinitely just ,then the way prayers actually work would seem rather debatable.

One assumes that one cannot up the sincerity level of the prayers, as all prayers should be 100% sincere from the start.

[sirs]

I have no problem judging them not to be Christian, and I simply pray harder for them
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This brings up an interesting thought. To wit, how does one 'pray harder'?

Withough being of the experience of prayer and a walk with God Xo, you could never understand.  Using an extreme example, one generally prays harder for a dying relative than for a sunny weekend

[Xavier_Onassis]

Hitler was only following Christ's teachings, right?    

Not only, but Christ was a member of the Chosen People, and Hitler felt that the modern version of the Chosen People were the Germans. If the Jews had been the Chosen People after Jesus, they would never have been driven out of Israel, would they?


That's why you can find so much scripture where Jesus advocating the extermination of anyone who wasn't a Jew, right??  

What does the left frequently pull....WWJD?  Exterminate all non-jews apparently.  Now, pull the other leg



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I fail to see how your conclusion makes any sense. Jesus was not about for either of the two rebellions in which the Jews actually drove the Romans out for a short period. Jesus would not have thought that the diaspora could have happened, since this was not typical Roman behavior.

I did not say the Germans were in fact the new Chosen people, though Spengler felt they were, and he was widel;y read by Germans in the 20's and 30's. I just said that it is somewhat difficult to accept that when the Jews were driven out of Palestine by the Romans, they were Chosen People. The circumstances would seem to indicate that they had been deselected.

Christians, of course, decided around the time of Paul that THEY were the NEW Chosen people, and that therefore being a Chosen Person was a matter of individual initiative (choosing to be a Christian) rather than blood (being born a Jew).

I am not in favor of anyone being exterminated. I am reasonable sure that even Hamas would be happy if the Jews merely went elsewhere. There is rather a lot of decent real estate still available in Australia or Canada, or even Nevada, Utah, Montana, North Dakota and Wyoming. Or they could come to the US oir Canada. Neither Americans nor Canadians have ever given the Jews a hard time of it.

[_JS]

I have no problem judging them not to be Christian, and I simply pray harder for them
================================================================
This brings up an interesting thought. To wit, how does one 'pray harder'?

Does one pray louder, does one use more words, does one wag their head up and down like Orthodox Jews, or try to create a callus on their forehead like Sheik Zawahiri from whacking it on the pavement of the temple? Does one pray for a longer duration?

It is unfortunate that there is no standardized scale, as with PSI in pounds per Square Inch or Newtons, or in Ohms as in amount of resistence. We could say that "He prayed for X hours at a PIL (Prayer Intensity Level) of 120.

The actual effectiveness of the prayer could mostly only be measured by God,though, as prayers are a way of getting God to move on some issue. Still, if God is always focused on everything happening everywhere, and is already infinitely just ,then the way prayers actually work would seem rather debatable.

One assumes that one cannot up the sincerity level of the prayers, as all prayers should be 100% sincere from the start.

A good question XO.

I don't know the answer.

From a personal devotion point of view, I feel much more spirituality and a sense of inner peace after praying the Holy Rosary. There are a few other prayers that I find very helpful and enjoyable to pray. I like The Way of the Cross because it gives a great opportunity to meditate on the Passion. The Ave Maria is great because of its collective nature in asking for intercession for all sinners.

So much of it is individual choice and sincerity.

One of the best prayers I've ever read and enjoy is from a Rabbi. He talks about how it is embarassing to be alive. He explains this in contrast to how majestic the mountains are and how vast and impressive are the seas. How unbelievable it is to look up and see the stars at night, billions of them, and how beautiful so many of God's creatures are and how intricate the systems that run the universe are. Yet, here we are, such imperfect beings - not very majestic, with all of our problems, primarily a destructive force. We never really take the time to understand what a miracle it is to be alive - to enjoy living.

I'll see if I can find that one. I had it on a print out from a church class.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Withough being of the experience of prayer and a walk with God Xo, you could never understand.  Using an extreme example, one generally prays harder for a dying relative than for a sunny weekend

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I can se how one might want a dying relative to live longer or die less painfully or perhaps to achieve a better place in the Choir Celestial.  One tends to yearn more for a a good meal than for an extra ootsie on one's Tootsie Roll, but the issue is how does one go about this?

Walking with God I have found difficult, due to the invisibility of said Supreme Being. I have encountered that it is rather difficult to go for a stroll with any invisible creatures. One must take care not to talk much to them when around others, lest one be deemed bonkers.

Even in a society where a majority profess to believe, it is best to say "just thinkinmg out loud", than "I was talking with God". The latter response will normally be met with a degree of disbelief, and incredulity, which is very much like disbelief, but niftier, since it has more syllables.

I once had an imaginary friend I could talk to, but one day, he took a powder and I have never not seen him again.

Here is a poem by a fellow who found invisible entities to be a problem:

"As I was going up the stair,
I met a man who was not there.
He wasn't there again today;
Gee, I wish he'd go away!"

I don't think I have ever beem embarrassed to be a human being, as opposed to a mountain or a sunset or an ocean. As Popeye says "I yam what I yam". 'Yo soy quien soy y no me parezco a nadie.' is what we say in espa?ol.

When the brightest stars go supernova, they are quite attractive, but of course, if one was an inhabitant of a planet orbiting such a star, one would be immolated in seconds, along with countless centuries of knowledge, civilization and progress. One could easily get really pissed at a Supreme Being for creating a universe with such supernovas in it. This could amount to  several thousand millions of entities being pissed off at a level of 110%+ for about three milliseconds, until they were all atomized into dust and gases.

[sirs]

Withough being of the experience of prayer and a walk with God Xo, you could never understand.  Using an extreme example, one generally prays harder for a dying relative than for a sunny weekend

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I can se how one might want a dying relative to live longer or die less painfully or perhaps to achieve a better place in the Choir Celestial.  One tends to yearn more for a a good meal than for an extra ootsie on one's Tootsie Roll, but the issue is how does one go about this?  Walking with God I have found difficult, due to the invisibility of said Supreme Being.

And there's your problem & answer, all rolled up into one.  I'll pray for you though