Diversity's Oppressions

[sirs]

And if they don't?

then our country continues to go downhill, as people have less and less reason to be an American

Please point out where Mr. Sowell said anything at all that indicated the core of his argument was that the "melting pot" is what has made this country great.

My apologies for claiming that Sowell was saying something specific about America's melting pot.  He obviously made no reference to it.  I'm simply extrapalating the points he was trying to articulate in his piece, and how they would coincide with the melting pot theory

Please tell me you're not suggesting now that the assimilation issue is not related to the immigration issue. Apples and oranges? This is another joke, right?

ENFORCEMENT of immigration laws does not equate to not supporting the notion of immigrating & assimilating to this country.  I'll ask this once, in this thread.  Please do NOT try making me out as not supporting immigration.  I simply don't support open borders.  I support LEGAL immigration, and for those who LEGALLY enter this country, I hope do so because they wish to be an American, and live the American dream.  Which AGAIN does NOT equate to them ignoring or abolishing the culture they came from  

APPLES & ORANGES......NO JOKE

[Michael Tee]

<<And by the way, I'm still waiting for someone to explain the whole oppressions of diversity thing. What, exactly, are the oppressions brought about by diversity? >>

LOL.  That's kinda like asking, what exactly is the danger to heterosexual marriage brought about by legalizing gay marriage?  Or, what exactly are the protections against terrorism brought about by the invasion and occupation of Iraq?

[Universe Prince]

then our country continues to go downhill, as people have less and less reason to be an American

If people do not want to assimilate, our country goes downhill? But you're not expecting immigrants to assimilate? Uh-huh. Okay. Uh, anyway, why does the country go downhill?

I'm simply extrapalating the points he was trying to articulate in his piece, and how they would coincide with the melting pot theory

I'm curious as to how you extrapolate his comment about there being no evidence that diversity has produced any benefit.

ENFORCEMENT of immigration laws does not equate to not supporting the notion of immigrating & assimilating to this country.

Okay, but that doesn't alter the fact that the assimilation issue is related to the immigration issue. And by the way, no one said a word about enforcement of immigration law or about comparing it to anything until you did. So I have no idea why you're even bother to make this point.

I'll ask this once, in this thread.

Thank God for small favors.

Please do NOT try making me out as not supporting immigration.

No one was.

I simply don't support open borders.  I support LEGAL immigration, and for those who LEGALLY enter this country, I hope do so because they wish to be an American, and live the American dream.  Which AGAIN does NOT equate to them ignoring or abolishing the culture they came from 

APPLES & ORANGES......NO JOKE

Nothing you've said refutes the notion that the matter of immigrants assimilating into our culture is a major part of the general objection to open borders. If anything, you've reinforced that notion. So you may not be joking, but you're not making a lot of sense either. In any case, you still have yet to explain why we need legal and illegal immigration in the first place. Yes, we all know you support legal immigration. But why? And no, this is not about are you for or against enforcement of existing law. Dig deeper. Why do we need the law in the first place? Take your time. I'm in no rush. And incidentally, I would not have asked if you hadn't started talking about it.

[Universe Prince]

That's kinda like asking, what exactly is the danger to heterosexual marriage brought about by legalizing gay marriage?

I've been wondering about that too, but I'm not sure I'm ready to sit through that discussion.

[sirs]

If people do not want to assimilate, our country goes downhill? But you're not expecting immigrants to assimilate? 

Did I say anything about "expecting them to"?  I would hope they would, and as I noted earlier, I've read countless stories of immigrants who came to America who absolutely wanted to assimilate.  They never gave up their culture or heritage or language.  Simply were thankful to not just be in America, but were proud to be an American, once they became citizens.  Again Prince, don't be putting words & thoughts down that I'm not attributing.  I haven't supported or advocated any form of mandatory assimilation.  Simply pointing out that that's what has happened over the last 2+ centures, and what has made America Great

Uh, anyway, why does the country go downhill?

As it continues to lose its identy, as more and more people see America as simply 1 big handout that , oh by the way, is this big mean imperialistic oppressive country, that they unfortunately just happen to live.  More & more people sticking their hands out and decrying, "where's mine?".  And likely less & less people willing to sacrafice their lives in the service of such a perceived wretched country

I'm curious as to how you extrapolate his comment about there being no evidence that diversity has produced any benefit.

I didn't extrapalate from that.  Diversity has obviously produced a load of benifits to this country.  But once again, diversity in the assimilation of cultures, for the sake of improving/enhancing American Culture is 1 thing.  Diversity simply for the sake of diversity is much more likely what Sowell was referring to

Okay, but that doesn't alter the fact that the assimilation issue is related to the immigration issue

Indirect relationship, yes.  Direct coorelation that if person A supports X of 1 obligates that they don't support Y of the other, NO

no one said a word about enforcement of immigration law or about comparing it to anything until you did. So I have no idea why you're even bother to make this point.

The point was brought up with your quote "Aren't you expecting people to assimilate? Maybe you're not, but as I recall, that is one of the major objections to open borders and letting all those Mexicans "flood" into America.".  YOU brought the 2 into play.  I was required to differentiate the 2.  Immigration is a legal matter.  Assimilation is simply a process that happens or doesn't, when people immigrate here.  It happened most of the time early on, and our country was the better for it

No one was. (about to claim I can't possibly support immigration if I dare support enforcement of immigration law)

Good.  Let's hope it stays that way

Nothing you've said refutes the notion that the matter of immigrants assimilating into our culture is a major part of the general objection to open borders

WRONG.  Assimilation IS absolutely beneficial to American culture.  Those that don't support open borders do so as a "major part of the general objection" based on our own finate resources, for our own citizens, and the absolute threat of foreign terrorism

In any case, you still have yet to explain why we need legal and illegal immigration in the first place. Yes, we all know you support legal immigration. But why?

Been there, done that.  See above quote for a quick recap

[The_Professor]

Plane: "Did Freud ever actually say that sometimes a Cigar is a cigar?"


I am not certain but sometimes "States Rights" is actually states rights an important issue in good government for its own sake.

There is a tiresome fixation on racism in places where it is really Little threat.

What has been legislated in the past two decades that really served the cause of White Supremacy? "

MT brings up the racist issue yet again....sigh. Predictability reigns yet again.

States rights can just mean that we, locally, know what is best for us than a stuffed shirt in D.C. As an example, just perhaps local school districts know some isuses at least better than DC, but, no, we have good old Federally-mandated NCLB. Bogus...simply bogus. My stepdaughter, who made mostly As last year in school, had to sit throguh a two-week "seat time" class last summer where she was shown videos about typing skills, etc. jsut becuase she missed too many days of school. Did they care whether she was mostly an A student? Nope. They cared about the money. How do I know? I asked them. The response: "the way NCLB is measured is attendance and we therefore do not receive out proper funding unless attendance criteria are met". Idiocy, folks. Get out the idiocy flag! 

It is arrogance for the Federal Government to assume they know more than the people who, every day, live and breath in their local community. Are their issues that need to be legislated in DC? Yep. Is it out of control? Yep. And, tihs is not just a Southern thing. Northern states and western states also reserve the right to determine, in many issues, what is best for them.

[Michael Tee]

<<I've been wondering about that too, [what threat permitting gay marriage poses to heterosexual marriage] but I'm not sure I'm ready to sit through that discussion.>>

Nor am I.  My point was simply that there are a lot of conservative positions that make no sense at all, not just the "anti-diversity" (i.e., anti-immigrant racism) position.  They are so nonsensical that often a single unanswered question is all that is needed to demonstrate their total absurdity.  I think the American people (most of them) are finally waking up to the fact that they've been had, and on a massive scale.

[_JS]

I'm simply extrapalating the points he was trying to articulate in his piece, and how they would coincide with the melting pot theory

UP asked the logical follow-up question to which Sirs replied:

I didn't extrapalate from that.  Diversity has obviously produced a load of benifits to this country.  But once again, diversity in the assimilation of cultures, for the sake of improving/enhancing American Culture is 1 thing.  Diversity simply for the sake of diversity is much more likely what Sowell was referring to

Sirs, did you by chance read this article before you posted it? Clearly Sowell states, in very plain English, that he does not accept the notion that diversity benefits America - or in fact any nation. Look at the historical examples he lists just after he chastises the idea of the "alleged benefits" of diversity.

Moreover, you have yet to address the central theme of the article itself. What are the oppressions of diversity? How are you and I being oppressed by diversity?

I have a myriad of other questions, but let's take this very slow. Will you answer those two questions. No need to be a politician, you're not running for office (and if you were I don't think any of us vote in your district). So, let's have a direct answer and try and use the text of the article for which you said that you disagree little.

[kimba1]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Americans are innovators. Actually a small number of Americans are innovators. Americans also tend to excel at new approaches to marketing. Both advertising and propaganda originated in the US. So did Tupperware parties, Multi-level marketing and franchised restaurants and other sorts of franchises.

The Japanese are best at taking a concept and perfecting it to the point of making its creation an art form.
Flower arranging, Paper folding (origami), calligraphy, bonsai and rock gardens are all examples of this. So are modern TV's, DVD and VCR players, Toyotas and Lexuses.

WE are better off having both the American and the Japanese types of creative spirit on the planet.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I totally agree,but us americans are losing our creative edge
ex. our forum has a creative writing section ,but it`s kicking my ass in coming up with something to write.
we are so starve for stories that our movies are using comic books.
don`t get me wrong,I`m a big time comicbook fan and totally completely love that it`s happening.
but It`s the truth creative imagination is down the drain right now.
and I see nothing helping us come up with something.
I can`t stand what passes for art nowadays also
don`t get me started on music

[Xavier_Onassis]

I totally agree,but us americans are losing our creative edge
ex. our forum has a creative writing section ,but it`s kicking my ass in coming up with something to write.
we are so starve for stories that our movies are using comic books.
don`t get me wrong,I`m a big time comicbook fan and totally completely love that it`s happening.
but It`s the truth creative imagination is down the drain right now.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The reason they are using comics for movie stories has nothing- NOTHING to do with a lack of decent screenplays and/or novels to use for the plots of films. There is not a lack of creativity of the artistic sort used in films. They are making movies of comics because it has proven to get a decent box office figure. On broadway, they are using Disney toons and rock music to make musical comedies, like The Lion King and Abba's Momma Mia. They could surely find something more creative for that, but would the NYC audience pay $150 per ticket to see it? That is the issue with regard to theatre and films.

Deadly weapon VIII is almost certainly not going to be any sort of great film, but the title will guarantee hundreds of thousands of ticket sales and tens of thousands of DVDs sold.  An original screenplay couldn't do that as readily, if at all.

Your being unable to write something you like is not symptomatic of the country. Perhaps you need more practice. Perhaps you have some sort of mental block. But it is unrelated to creativity or a lack of same in the US today. Keep at it, you will eventually turn out something you are satisfied with.

Where we lack creativity in the US seems to be a lack ot technical espertise in developing new products and systems. Most of our engineering students in the US are not Americans, and engineering is the key to complex new innovative products.

[kimba1]

I`m using me to point out being creative is tough.
And I think being innovative require greater exposure to non related ideas.
ex. steve jobs travelled and studied eastern philosophy.
our engineers tend to be too speacialized.
we need to be exposed varied concepts to get the creativity going.

[Universe Prince]

Uh, anyway, why does the country go downhill?

As it continues to lose its identy, as more and more people see America as simply 1 big handout that , oh by the way, is this big mean imperialistic oppressive country, that they unfortunately just happen to live.  More & more people sticking their hands out and decrying, "where's mine?".  And likely less & less people willing to sacrafice their lives in the service of such a perceived wretched country

As it continues to lose its identity? What does that even mean? As more people see America as a big handout? Who are these people? And frankly, wouldn't the one big handout issue a problem arising from the handouts rather than from the people coming here? When pre-existing problems result in unexpected consequences, those consequences are not the problem.

Diversity has obviously produced a load of benifits to this country.  But once again, diversity in the assimilation of cultures, for the sake of improving/enhancing American Culture is 1 thing.  Diversity simply for the sake of diversity is much more likely what Sowell was referring to

Considering Mr. Sowell didn't even come close to saying that, I am left wondering upon what you could possibly be basing that conclusion.

Okay, but that doesn't alter the fact that the assimilation issue is related to the immigration issue

Indirect relationship, yes.  Direct coorelation that if person A supports X of 1 obligates that they don't support Y of the other, NO

Are you denying that the assimilation issue is a major part of the immigration debate? And by the way, no one made  the correlation you're talking about. So why are you arguing against it?

no one said a word about enforcement of immigration law or about comparing it to anything until you did. So I have no idea why you're even bother to make this point.

The point was brought up with your quote "Aren't you expecting people to assimilate? Maybe you're not, but as I recall, that is one of the major objections to open borders and letting all those Mexicans "flood" into America.".  YOU brought the 2 into play.

I did? Let me see... um, no, no, not seeing a word about enforcement of immigration law. And I never compared it to support one way or the other to immigration. I believe what I said was, "as I recall, that is one of the major objections to open borders and letting all those Mexicans 'flood' into America." And so far, I haven't seen anything to contradict that idea that concerns about assimilation are part of the concerns about open borders. In fact, you're the one who said if immigrants do not assimilate then the country goes downhill. So you keep making my point while you insist, apparently, that there is no connection.

I was required to differentiate the 2.

You were? By whom? Did someone pass legislation requiring you to do so? Oh, no, wait, you mean you felt you were required to do so. So, you admit then that someone can speak of being required to do something without meaning there must be some legislation requiring it. Okay. Good. I'm glad we cleared that up. Maybe next time someone talks about people not being required to assimilate, we can just skip the whole outraged "did someone pass a law" bit.

Anyway, no, actually, you were not required to differentiate between immigration and assimilation. I assure you I already knew the difference. No one said they were the same. I believe I said, basically, the assimilation issue is tied to the immigration issue because people who are upset about immigration are concerned about assimilation, or rather a supposed lack thereof.

Nothing you've said refutes the notion that the matter of immigrants assimilating into our culture is a major part of the general objection to open borders

WRONG.  Assimilation IS absolutely beneficial to American culture.  Those that don't support open borders do so as a "major part of the general objection" based on our own finate resources, for our own citizens, and the absolute threat of foreign terrorism

I ask again, are you denying that the assimilation issue is a major part of the immigration debate? People objecting to open borders are not complaining about people not speaking English, not complaining about subdivisions or communities of Mexicans, not complaining about Spanish on local signs and such? Are you seriously telling me none of that is involved in the objections against open borders?

In any case, you still have yet to explain why we need legal and illegal immigration in the first place. Yes, we all know you support legal immigration. But why?

Been there, done that.  See above quote for a quick recap

Been there, not done that. What finite resources? Welfare? Again, this is an illustration of the problem with Welfare, not with open immigration. And what about terrorism? We've had domestic terrorism by American citizens, and I don't see you clamoring for closing down the state borders to protect us from terrorists blowing up buildings like, say, what happened in Oklahoma City some years back. We don't need legal and illegal immigration to protect us from these things, and I doubt the ability of it to protect us because, frankly, we still have people coming in and we still had a terrorist attack from guys who did not covertly cross our southern border.

In any case, the immigration issue is a side track from the main issue, and clearly... well, let's set it aside and get back to the notion of being oppressed by diversity. I'll repeat my questions about this.

What, exactly, are the oppressions brought about by diversity? Am I oppressed by living in a diverse society? And if so, what have I lost, i.e.,  in what way have I been oppressed? If not the oppression of an individual, then perhaps society, in part or as a whole, has been oppressed. In which case the question remains. In what way has society—which is individuals and therefore includes me—been oppressed? What, exactly, is oppressive about diversity?

For that matter, what are the dangers and violence of diversity? Mr. Sowell said, "Despite much gushing about how we should 'celebrate diversity,' America's great achievement has not been in having diversity but in taming its dangers that have run amok in many other countries. Americans have by no means escaped diversity's oppressions and violence, but we have reined them in." So what are these dangers of diversity that must be tamed? What is the violence of diversity that must be reined in?

[Plane]

   The danger of diversity is scism and an attitude of "I'll get mine".


      There is a brotherhood amoung Americans , it allows us all to be Irish on St. Patricks day while in Ireland itself not even the Irish are entirely Irish if you ask one about another.

        When we have the brotherhood thing going on we are invincible and willing to self sacrifice our comfort , wealth and even lives to the comon good as volenteers . Volenteers have always gotten a lot done in America.


       Is Assimilation joining the brotherhood? The fellow feeling is the important part , the accent , clothing , minor customs , religious prefrences and etc. are secondary to the central idea that America is a nation .

        WE do things for each other , when in need especially or when under threat most especially. We garuntee for each other a certain minimum respect and mutual protection for each oters rights.  Some of our worst problems have been caused by drawing a line around the tribe and trying to be exclusive , Americans who speak strangely and beleive strange things and do strange things or look diffrent can actually be good Americans if they have the Affection for the ideal that makes America America in the first place.

         A lot of immagrants arrive with a good idea of how to assimilate into this brotherhood scheme , some even have an exaggerated idea of how good it is , guys like that refresh our idealism , reinvigorate the affection we feel for our American way.


         Are some immagrants a threat to this fellowship?  Maybe some are , if they can't or won't respect the rights of their fellows and help to build the ideal why do we want them and why do they want to be here?  But who is this?

[kimba1]

I kinda see that with the chinese
If you go into their there`s these banner and statues all over the place.
but in china nobody has these in there home.
immagrants don`t truely retain their cultures .
they retain their idea of what the culture should be to them.
also immagrants tend to be very poor example of their land of birth.
ex. filipinoes
almost every single one I`ve met is a marcoes supporter
but in the philipines he`s not that well loved.

[Plane]

I kinda see that with the chinese
If you go into their there`s these banner and statues all over the place.
but in china nobody has these in there home.
immagrants don`t truely retain their cultures .
they retain their idea of what the culture should be to them.
also immagrants tend to be very poor example of their land of birth.
ex. filipinoes
almost every single one I`ve met is a marcoes supporter
but in the philipines he`s not that well loved.

I am a Cracker myself , and redneck is a grand thing to be .

This sould not prevent me from being a full American or subject me to a reduced set of rights should it?