An Anatomy of Surrender

[Universe Prince]

Huh. So just exactly when did the USAF begin letting terrorists define what the USAF is?

We don't , they do. They tell each other that they are really great religionists in the only true religion and we are killing them for this reason. The facts may be otherwise for us , we don't really care what they say as long as they don't follow up by harming us. There are lots of Mosques in the US and we have not been burning them down .

So... now you're saying the USAF is in fact not an anti-Muslim league. If you don't care that they think you are, why even bring it up?

It is not the point to generate pointless fear , but to be clear eyed.

I'm sure Malkin and the fellow who wrote the article at the start of this thread and ChristiansUnited4LessGvt would all say so too. But then again so would the KKK and the anti-Semitic and those folks who warned so earnestly about the Yellow Peril. I'm not calling anyone a racist. I am saying the rhetoric still amounts the fearmongering, and I'm saying when people talk in these terms of massive, international, fifth column conspiracies, you should be highly skeptical if not dismissive. There was no actual Yellow Peril. The Jews are neither inferior nor trying to take over the world. The Muslims of the world do not form an international fifth column conspiracy to destroy the West. Yes, there were Chinese criminals. Yes, some Jews are good at banking. Yes, some Muslims are terrorists. So we should deal rationally with the ones who are, and not waste time trying to drum up irrational prejudice to enforce an irrational Us vs. Them dichotomy that will only cause more harm than good. That is as clear-eyed an assessment as you're going to find.

[Plane]

Huh. So just exactly when did the USAF begin letting terrorists define what the USAF is?

We don't , they do. They tell each other that they are really great religionists in the only true religion and we are killing them for this reason. The facts may be otherwise for us , we don't really care what they say as long as they don't follow up by harming us. There are lots of Mosques in the US and we have not been burning them down .

So... now you're saying the USAF is in fact not an anti-Muslim league. If you don't care that they think you are, why even bring it up?

It is not the point to generate pointless fear , but to be clear eyed.

I'm sure Malkin and the fellow who wrote the article at the start of this thread and ChristiansUnited4LessGvt would all say so too. But then again so would the KKK and the anti-Semitic and those folks who warned so earnestly about the Yellow Peril. I'm not calling anyone a racist. I am saying the rhetoric still amounts the fearmongering, and I'm saying when people talk in these terms of massive, international, fifth column conspiracies, you should be highly skeptical if not dismissive. There was no actual Yellow Peril. The Jews are neither inferior nor trying to take over the world. The Muslims of the world do not form an international fifth column conspiracy to destroy the West. Yes, there were Chinese criminals. Yes, some Jews are good at banking. Yes, some Muslims are terrorists. So we should deal rationally with the ones who are, and not waste time trying to drum up irrational prejudice to enforce an irrational Us vs. Them dichotomy that will only cause more harm than good. That is as clear-eyed an assessment as you're going to find.

I don't agree with your assessment of the original article. The situation is analogous to the KKK which is why I brought them up. Membership in the KKK was never a majority of any state , but their pro Christian propaganda , or their claim to be good Christians helped them achieve tolerance and assistance from the non members they lived among.

Al Quedas leadership has charm and appeal , they claim scriptural justification and piety, the KKK ran this advantage into the ground and they seem ridiculous when they speak this way now, perhaps after a while the Al Quieda will sound ridiculous when they claim to be the best of Islam , at that point they will just begin to loose the war they declared.

[Universe Prince]

I don't agree with your assessment of the original article. The situation is analogous to the KKK which is why I brought them up. Membership in the KKK was never a majority of any state , but their pro Christian propaganda , or their claim to be good Christians helped them achieve tolerance and assistance from the non members they lived among.

No part of that makes much sense to me. For one thing, you're oversimplifying. The KKK existed in several forms. There was a Reconstruction era KKK, and a collection of groups calling themselves the KKK starting in the first part of the 20th century which became the almost purely racist KKK of the 1960s. So which one are you talking about? While most people think of the KKK as that of the 1960s, almost purely a racist and nativist group engaged in violence and intimidation of non-whites, the KKK of the early 20th century was a social organization (or more accurately a group of social organizations with similar goals) concerned with labor issues, education and politics, and such groups were not always necessarily racist or nativist. And over the stretch of the KKK's several incarnations, the KKK has waxed and waned in popularity and size. So please, if you're going to use the KKK as a metaphor, you need to be more clear as to what you mean by that.

For another thing, if you want me to see the KKK as analogous to some sort of international fifth column conspiracy, you really need to do more than say it's analogous and then give me some weak explanation that is suppose to illustrate the analogy. Please, explain this to me. I'm not a genius. I cannot see what you're thinking, and your explanations are not enough for stupid ol' me to grasp the, I'm sure, brilliant point you're trying to make.

[Universe Prince]

For a quick look at what I'm talking about regarding the KKK, check this out: http://www.reason.com/news/show/34134.html

[Plane]

I don't agree with your assessment of the original article. The situation is analogous to the KKK which is why I brought them up. Membership in the KKK was never a majority of any state , but their pro Christian propaganda , or their claim to be good Christians helped them achieve tolerance and assistance from the non members they lived among.

No part of that makes much sense to me. For one thing, you're oversimplifying. The KKK existed in several forms. There was a Reconstruction era KKK, and a collection of groups calling themselves the KKK starting in the first part of the 20th century which became the almost purely racist KKK of the 1960s. So which one are you talking about? While most people think of the KKK as that of the 1960s, almost purely a racist and nativist group engaged in violence and intimidation of non-whites, the KKK of the early 20th century was a social organization (or more accurately a group of social organizations with similar goals) concerned with labor issues, education and politics, and such groups were not always necessarily racist or nativist. And over the stretch of the KKK's several incarnations, the KKK has waxed and waned in popularity and size. So please, if you're going to use the KKK as a metaphor, you need to be more clear as to what you mean by that.

For another thing, if you want me to see the KKK as analogous to some sort of international fifth column conspiracy, you really need to do more than say it's analogous and then give me some weak explanation that is suppose to illustrate the analogy. Please, explain this to me. I'm not a genius. I cannot see what you're thinking, and your explanations are not enough for stupid ol' me to grasp the, I'm sure, brilliant point you're trying to make.

Which sort of KKK did not claim to be Christian and depend on quiet neighbors?

Which sort isn't analogous in this particular way?

[Universe Prince]

Which sort of KKK did not claim to be Christian and depend on quiet neighbors?

I don't know, Plane. I'm too stupid to figure this out. Which KKK was so popular and so large as to fit some sort of analogy with an international fifth column conspiracy? I'm thinking maybe the one that had a charter from the state of Georgia was not exactly a secret. I'm thinking most of them were not really a secret. But obviously I must be wrong. Clearly they were an international fifth column conspiracy because you said so. And I mean that sarcastically.

Which sort isn't analogous in this particular way?

Since I still don't know what the analogy actually is, I cannot say. I repeat: "if you want me to see the KKK as analogous to some sort of international fifth column conspiracy, you really need to do more than say it's analogous and then give me some weak explanation that is suppose to illustrate the analogy. Please, explain this to me. I'm not a genius. I cannot see what you're thinking, and your explanations are not enough for stupid ol' me to grasp the, I'm sure, brilliant point you're trying to make."

I am trying to understand, Plane. But if all we're going to do is gloss over details and claim the KKK in general is a model for the Muslim population of the world, as if Muslims are all secretly terrorist sympathizers in cahoots to rule the world, and if you're going to sell that as some sort of clear-eyed assessment snake oil, I ain't buying. If you've got something more specific in mind, for the love of pizza, then explain it to me. Otherwise, we have nothing to discuss.

[Plane]

Which sort isn't analogous in this particular way?

I am trying to understand, Plane. But if all we're going to do is gloss over details and claim the KKK in general is a model for the Muslim population of the world, as if Muslims are all secretly terrorist sympathizers in cahoots to rule the world, and if you're going to sell that as some sort of clear-eyed assessment snake oil, I ain't buying.color]

Well there it is, you have it backwards.

The KKK is analogous to the Al Queda , the population of Islam that tolerate their presence is alike to the American Christians who were taken in by KKK claims of rightiousness.

In both cases it never was everyone . The KKK was and is probly larger then the Al Queda even though Al Queda is international in a way the KKK never tried to be .

Although I can draw a parrellell in this or that respect , I am not claiming that one is the copy of the other.

"as if Muslims are all secretly terrorist sympathizers in cahoots to rule the world" Is a little stronger than I would have said , but the case for the Koran being the foundation of exactly this is indeed the charter of the Al Queda and the reason that the Al Queda has been able to hide from us quite well in several diffrent countrys.

Your position is alike to President Bush who has so often said that Al Queda hijacks a noble religion , but what have they done to accomplish the hyjacking?

[Universe Prince]

"as if Muslims are all secretly terrorist sympathizers in cahoots to rule the world" Is a little stronger than I would have said , but the case for the Koran being the foundation of exactly this is indeed the charter of the Al Queda and the reason that the Al Queda has been able to hide from us quite well in several diffrent countrys.

Your position is alike to President Bush who has so often said that Al Queda hijacks a noble religion , but what have they done to accomplish the hyjacking?

I'm getting a little tired of this dancing around. Do you or do you not agree with the the article that began this thread? Do you or do you not agree with reply #13 of this thread? Do you or do you not believe the Muslims of the world constitute an international fifth column conspiracy that threatens the foundations of the U.S. and the Western world?

And in case my post seems obfuscated, from where I sit, the clear-eyed appraisal of the nature of the Muslim world and terrorism is not made by the initial post of this thread, reply #13, Michelle Malkin's article, or any argument that tries to claim the Muslims of the world constitute some sort of international fifth column conspiracy that threatens the U.S. and the Western world.

I sit here and watch as you and others call for clear-eyed assessment of the situation, for wake-up calls to the reality of the situation. And I watch as attempts to have a clear-eyed discussion are bogged down in assertions that anyone who doesn't see the threat of the international fifth column conspiracy is not facing up to the reality of the situation. We cannot discuss whether or not there is a moderate/liberal Muslim population because we're too busy trying to figure how the KKK is a metaphor for the Muslim world. The Muslim world has been judged before we have even started to attempt a clear-eyed assessment of the situation. We condemn al Qaeda for considering the USAF an anti-Muslim league, and we refuse to consider that the Muslims as a whole are not an anti-West league. Seems to me the KKK metaphor might have another application.

So unless we're going to get past the "Muslims are all secretly terrorist sympathizers in cahoots to rule the world" and have a clear-eyed discussion, then we have nothing to discuss because there is no actual discussion taking place.

[Plane]

"as if Muslims are all secretly terrorist sympathizers in cahoots to rule the world" Is a little stronger than I would have said , but the case for the Koran being the foundation of exactly this is indeed the charter of the Al Queda and the reason that the Al Queda has been able to hide from us quite well in several diffrent countrys.

Your position is alike to President Bush who has so often said that Al Queda hijacks a noble religion , but what have they done to accomplish the hyjacking?

I'm getting a little tired of this dancing around. Do you or do you not agree with the the article that began this thread? Do you or do you not agree with reply #13 of this thread? Do you or do you not believe the Muslims of the world constitute an international fifth column conspiracy that threatens the foundations of the U.S. and the Western world?

And in case my post seems obfuscated, from where I sit, the clear-eyed appraisal of the nature of the Muslim world and terrorism is not made by the initial post of this thread, reply #13, Michelle Malkin's article, or any argument that tries to claim the Muslims of the world constitute some sort of international fifth column conspiracy that threatens the U.S. and the Western world.

I sit here and watch as you and others call for clear-eyed assessment of the situation, for wake-up calls to the reality of the situation. And I watch as attempts to have a clear-eyed discussion are bogged down in assertions that anyone who doesn't see the threat of the international fifth column conspiracy is not facing up to the reality of the situation. We cannot discuss whether or not there is a moderate/liberal Muslim population because we're too busy trying to figure how the KKK is a metaphor for the Muslim world. The Muslim world has been judged before we have even started to attempt a clear-eyed assessment of the situation. We condemn al Qaeda for considering the USAF an anti-Muslim league, and we refuse to consider that the Muslims as a whole are not an anti-West league. Seems to me the KKK metaphor might have another application.

So unless we're going to get past the "Muslims are all secretly terrorist sympathizers in cahoots to rule the world" and have a clear-eyed discussion, then we have nothing to discuss because there is no actual discussion taking place.

I agree with the article which you seem to have speed read. Islam does have this problem built into it , hard wired.
There are lots of peace loveing Muslims , but there is a definatly observed phenominon of Muslims blowing up busses without direct contact with any central command .

So what there is to discuss is the degree to which""So unless we're going to get past the "Muslims are all secretly terrorist sympathizers in cahoots to rule the world" " is true .

The literal language of the Koran and Hadith call Jahaid a duty and the Al Queda call every non supporter a shirk, if their attitude doesn't matter what does?

Very many Muslims consider the Al Queda a foolish project each one who thinks this way is no problem and this is likely a majority , yet even a minority smaller than 1% distributed across freindly territory in an unpredictable patter is a serious fifth collum problem.

[Universe Prince]

I agree with the article which you seem to have speed read.

No idea which one that is.

Speed read? Pooh yi.

Very many Muslims consider the Al Queda a foolish project each one who thinks this way is no problem and this is likely a majority , yet even a minority smaller than 1% distributed across freindly territory in an unpredictable patter is a serious fifth collum problem.

So we have moved past "Muslims are all secretly terrorist sympathizers in cahoots to rule the world". (I hope.) So now what? The article in reply #13 says:

But it is manageable only if Muslim migration is halted, and funds from Saudi Arabia and other rich Arab states are prevented from being used to build up a fifth column within the Infidel lands through mosques, madrasas, propaganda, and armies of Western hirelings, some of them merely venal, some of them something worse, all of them traitors to the West, who deserve to be seen, and to be treated, as we would have treated those who were in the pay of Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia.

The very presence of Muslims, the author makes clear, is a threat to the Western world. So tell me what your clear-eyed appraisal of this is. Is the author correct? Is he wrong? And who are the Western hirelings who are traitors? Do you agree they are traitors?

If you think I'm speed reading these articles, being unfair in my assessment, then let's see you defend them. Explain why they are correct and I am wrong.

[_JS]

I'd like to hear some clear answers as well.

I've been quickly labelled as someone who needs one of those "wake-up calls" because I don't consider terrorism or Islam a vital threat or to be honest, all that much of a major crises of massive proportions certainly not to the degree that Michelle Malkin, Sirs, or CU4 seem to consistently indicate.

But it is manageable only if Muslim migration is halted, and funds from Saudi Arabia and other rich Arab states are prevented from being used to build up a fifth column within the Infidel lands through mosques, madrasas, propaganda, and armies of Western hirelings, some of them merely venal, some of them something worse, all of them traitors to the West, who deserve to be seen, and to be treated, as we would have treated those who were in the pay of Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia.

Do the folks in here agree with this view?

[Plane]

If you think I'm speed reading these articles, being unfair in my assessment, then let's see you defend them. Explain why they are correct and I am wrong.[/color]

You have a strategy that would prevent Muslims from interpreting scripture as a license to kill?

I don't think that heavy restrictions on immigration is a practical solution , nor do I think that putting on blinders solves anything.


Here is the problem , Al Queda can persuede a small number of Muslims to create havoc , they use Islam to produce the persuesion , the fifth collumn does indeed show up amoung Islamic populations anywhere.

Seeing how the fifth collum has blown up trains in Spain and Busses in England I don't think you can argure that the problem is lesser than what is observed , yet I would argue that the visible part of the problem is likely smaller then its true extent.

If I do conceed that restrictions on trade and immagration are unfesable , what do you propose as the more fesable alternative ?

[Universe Prince]

You have a strategy that would prevent Muslims from interpreting scripture as a license to kill?

Prevent people from thinking something we don't like? Ummmmmmmmm, no. I don't. Don't want to. "Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good."

I don't think that heavy restrictions on immigration is a practical solution , nor do I think that putting on blinders solves anything.

That I prefer not to be distracted by the misdirection of some who want to promote the Muslim Peril does not mean I am wearing blinders or that I expect anyone to do so.

Here is the problem , Al Queda can persuede a small number of Muslims to create havoc , they use Islam to produce the persuesion , the fifth collumn does indeed show up amoung Islamic populations anywhere.

Seeing how the fifth collum has blown up trains in Spain and Busses in England I don't think you can argure that the problem is lesser than what is observed , yet I would argue that the visible part of the problem is likely smaller then its true extent.

If I do conceed that restrictions on trade and immagration are unfesable , what do you propose as the more fesable alternative ?

I propose that we have to start with the acknowledgment that there is such a thing as moderate/liberal Islam. The notion of jihad as a holy war against infidels is not the only one. But at no point can we discuss this with anything remotely resembling clear-eyed assessment if we cannot first acknowledge that it exists. One of my major objections to the articles that ChristiansUnited4LessGvt has posted here is that they do not, and seem to make a point of refusing to, acknowledge that moderate/liberal Islam exists. You want to talk about blinders? Well, there they are. If we only ever say that the Islamic terrorist version of Islam is the right one, or that it is necessarily supported by Muslim holy texts, we're never going to have a clear-eyed discussion about this.

Believe it or not, Irshad Manji, a "Candadian Muslim feminist, author, journalist, activist, and lesbian", does exist. And if we want to figure out what to do about fundamentalist, extremist, terrorist Islam, we need to start with people like her, not with people like Michelle Malkin, Bruce Bawer or Hugh Fitzgerald (authors of articles ChristiansUnited4LessGvt has posted in this thread). That is not only a feasible alternative, it is, in my opinion, the only feasible way to address the matter for long term peaceful results that protect us and them.

But as long as we keep being distracted by the fearmongering, as long as we get bogged down in notions of a Muslim fifth column, we will never have that kind of clear-eyed discussion. We have to move past what seems to have become conventional thinking on this matter if we intend to ever grasp the true nature of the situation and determine what to do about it. If you want clear-eyed assessment, you have to live in the light, not in the shadows of the cave. And what people like Malkin et al offer has no more value than shadows on a cave wall.

[Christians4LessGvt]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOy7Rj71m4k[/youtube]

[Plane]

I think you are being more hopefull than realistic.

If terrorists are a small minority of Muslims , sadly, Muslims willing to condemn them seem also to be a small minority.

Al Queda has had no problem finding hiding places , supples and money .

Perhaps there will come a time when most Muslims are ashamed of Al Quieda style political action by means of violence , but if this were already so Al Queda would have been easily eliminated .

What is demonstrated by events like the bombings in London?

Not that there is a large number of violent Muslims , but that a rather small number can be a big problem.


If you have found a  "Canadian Muslim feminist, author, journalist, activist, and lesbian", what do you expect her to do?

She will have precious little credibility with Members of Al Quieda , their admirers , and those intimidated by Al Quieda , she will be neither persuasive nor a threat -Al Queida is both.