Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture

[Universe Prince]

I liked this article.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Islam

There is a fight going on within Islam , it is just as epic as the reformation , unfortunately the reactionary side of the argument has most of the money and all of the guns.

I liked this article: http://www.reason.com/news/show/126352.html. I doubt that threatening people with bombs and warfare is the way to help the moderate Muslims make their case. When people, whatever their religion or culture might be, believe they are threatened, they seek to defend themselves, right? I mean that is what this discussion is about, is it not? The Muslims are threat, and therefore we must defend ourselves. So what do you think is the Muslim reaction to talking about bombing their lands? If we say no head scarves, do we really expect them to to conform without feeling like there is a level of religious and/or cultural persecution going on? Even if we accept this "Muslim Peril" as everything that ChristiansUnited4LessGvt claims it to be, do you really think we're going to help the moderate Muslims win a culture war by treating all Muslims as potential fifth columnists? Do you think we're going to help the moderate Muslims win a culture war by trying to shut off the Muslims from the rest of the world with immigration bans and trade embargoes? Push people into a corner and say "conform or else", is that really the way to convince people our way is better?

[Plane]

I liked this article.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Islam

There is a fight going on within Islam , it is just as epic as the reformation , unfortunately the reactionary side of the argument has most of the money and all of the guns.

I liked this article: http://www.reason.com/news/show/126352.html. I doubt that threatening people with bombs and warfare is the way to help the moderate Muslims make their case. When people, whatever their religion or culture might be, believe they are threatened, they seek to defend themselves, right? I mean that is what this discussion is about, is it not? The Muslims are threat, and therefore we must defend ourselves. So what do you think is the Muslim reaction to talking about bombing their lands? If we say no head scarves, do we really expect them to to conform without feeling like there is a level of religious and/or cultural persecution going on? Even if we accept this "Muslim Peril" as everything that ChristiansUnited4LessGvt claims it to be, do you really think we're going to help the moderate Muslims win a culture war by treating all Muslims as potential fifth columnists? Do you think we're going to help the moderate Muslims win a culture war by trying to shut off the Muslims from the rest of the world with immigration bans and trade embargoes? Push people into a corner and say "conform or else", is that really the way to convince people our way is better?

That is a good description of the situation in France, the American population of Muslims has assimilated a lot better, and is neither attacked as much nor complains as much as the French Muslims.

There is very little "conform or else", in the US that is one of the problems with our relationship , they hate us for our freedoms , they consider us debauched.

There is a lot of "conform or else", in Saudi Arabia this is part of our problem with them , we don't like their tyrany.


In any case I see you have accepted the idea that Islam is an important factor in French Rioting , even though youre excuseing them because they are being irritated by the French.

[Universe Prince]

In any case I see you have accepted the idea that Islam is an important factor in French Rioting , even though youre excuseing them because they are being irritated by the French.

Wrong on both counts.

There is very little "conform or else", in the US that is one of the problems with our relationship , they hate us for our freedoms , they consider us debauched.

Wow. I'm seeing this anew. They're a threat to us because they're not like us, and they're a threat to us because we're not like them. Perfect Us vs. Them rationality. And of course, unassailable because there is no denying that they are not like us and that we are not like them. Any ways in which they might be like us or we like them are anomalies that prove how Them and Us are not really alike. No wonder I cannot make any progress.

[Plane]

In any case I see you have accepted the idea that Islam is an important factor in French Rioting , even though you're excusing them because they are being irritated by the French.

Wrong on both counts.

There is very little "conform or else", in the US that is one of the problems with our relationship , they hate us for our freedoms , they consider us debauched.

Wow. I'm seeing this anew. They're a threat to us because they're not like us, and they're a threat to us because we're not like them. Perfect Us vs. Them rationality. And of course, unassailable because there is no denying that they are not like us and that we are not like them. Any ways in which they might be like us or we like them are anomalies that prove how Them and Us are not really alike. No wonder I cannot make any progress.

You aren't going to make any progress without realizing that this double bind is actual.

It is also very mutual , there is a perceived threat from us that predates any spoken threat , predating living memory actually but exacerbated in recent years.

The very orthodox Islam of Saudi Arabia has the government behind it , they build Mosques around the world and preach Jihad as if it were 1099.

The way they are most like us is that they are like we were during the Crusades.

If you want to make progress against my argument here try to find the mistakes I might be making in finding the facts , not errors in logic, because I am not reporting to you something that I am making up myself , I am describing to you a situation which actually includes some pretty glaring illogic.

I would have to depart from the truth to make this stuff logical.

[Plane]

I liked this article: http://www.reason.com/news/show/126352.html.

This article includes all the facts needed to understand that they hate us for our freedom.

It isn't just Barbbe ,sex pervades our advertiseing , entertainment and dayly lives in a way that the orthodox Muslim finds shocking and offensive . We could not irritate them more than we do without meaning to.

They feel that we are debauched and that we are evangilistic about it , our entertainment output confrounts them on the airwaves , our literature is Hefnerised and far too much smuggled in.

Oh yea , they don't appreaciate missionarys for Christianity either , but I don't know really whether a smuggled New Testiment in Saudi Arabia or a smuggled Barbie in Iran is the worser.

[Plane]

In any case I see you have accepted the idea that Islam is an important factor in French Rioting , even though youre excuseing them because they are being irritated by the French.

Wrong on both counts.

They are not bveing irritated by the French?

You have not yet learned that most of the rioters are from Muslim familys?

[Plane]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/10/08/muslim.barbie.ap/
For Saadeh, the doll not only fills a marketing void but also offers Muslim girls someone they can relate to.

"The main message we try to put forward through the doll is that what matters is what's inside you, not how you look," said Saadeh, who set up NoorArt Inc. with his wife and a few other investors.

The Livonia-based company, founded about seven years ago, sells the Razanne doll and a number of other toys geared toward Muslim children.

"It doesn't matter if you're tall or short, thin or fat, beautiful or not, the real beauty seen by God and fellow Muslims is what's in your soul," he said.

Razanne has the body of a preteen. The doll comes in three types: fair-skinned blonde, olive-skinned with black hair, or black skin and black hair



In the United States, Mattel, which makes Barbie, markets a Moroccan Barbie and sells a collector's doll named Leyla. Leyla's elaborate costume and tale of being taken as a slave in the court of a Turkish sultan are intended to convey the tribulations of one Muslim girl in the 1720s.

"It's no surprise that they'd try to portray a Middle Eastern Barbie either as a belly dancer or a concubine," said Saadeh, adding that countering such stereotypes was one of his main aims in developing Razanne.

Mattel didn't respond to repeated calls seeking comment.

[Plane]

I am looseing track of something, Who found the article about a French town enlisting Imams with loudspeakers to break up a riot?


Does this prove that Islam is or isn't important to the cause of the riot?

Does it merely prove that the Rioters respected Imams?

[Cynthia]

"And if we could aim a few gay soap opera Nukes their way, so much the better. After all, hardcore mullahs and old-school feminists aren't the only ones who despise Barbie's vacant but empowering gaze. In 2002, an AFA spokesman decried a pregnant version of Barbie's married sidekick Midge that featured a trap-door stomach with an adorable unborn baby inside it, exclaiming that "Mattel should stay out of the 'birds and bees' business and leave adult themes alone." (Yes, you read that right; the American Family Association is officially against childbirth.)"
http://www.reason.com/news/show/126352.html

I fail to see how is the AFA is officially against childbirth on this one. Seems the issue is more about Midge bein' unmarried. Frankly, if someone wants to use props to teach what it is like to "have a baby"......there's the old give a 5th grader a raw egg for a day idea.  THe egg is "the baby".....the baby is to be cared for and nurtured for the duration...changing the diaper, carrying it from recess to class...all without a drop.

 Mattel needs to produce a menopausal doll. 

[Universe Prince]

They are not bveing irritated by the French?

Most them are French. But the point was that I'm not excusing them.

You have not yet learned that most of the rioters are from Muslim familys?

That was never a point of contention, at least with me. The point of contention was that not all of the rioters were Muslim, and that since there were Christians and likely folks of other faiths and possibly even some agnostics and atheists involved, and since apparently no one was shouting religious chants, the riots were not then "Muslim riots". I've said this now at least three times. If people still want to deny these facts, then I won't stop them or even try. But it would be nice if those people would stop talking to me like I'm the one in denial.

[Universe Prince]

Does it merely prove that the Rioters respected Imams?

It proves that someone thought some of the rioters would. But then there was criticism that sending in the imams was wrong because the problem was a social issue and not a religious issue.

[Universe Prince]

In 2002, an AFA spokesman decried a pregnant version of Barbie's married sidekick Midge that featured a trap-door stomach with an adorable unborn baby inside it, exclaiming that "Mattel should stay out of the 'birds and bees' business and leave adult themes alone." (Yes, you read that right; the American Family Association is officially against childbirth.)

I fail to see how is the AFA is officially against childbirth on this one.

The author of the article was being sarcastic.

[Plane]

You have not yet learned that most of the rioters are from Muslim familys?

That was never a point of contention, at least with me. The point of contention was that not all of the rioters were Muslim, and that since there were Christians and likely folks of other faiths and possibly even some agnostics and atheists involved, and since apparently no one was shouting religious chants, the riots were not then "Muslim riots". I've said this now at least three times. If people still want to deny these facts, then I won't stop them or even try. But it would be nice if those people would stop talking to me like I'm the one in denial.

All right, how are these facts proven?

You are not the only one I think is in denial , I think you are finding lots of sorces to quote who are in denial.

[Plane]

Plea for calm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4440422.stm

Some, such as Disiz La Peste, have called openly for an end to the rioting.

"Burning cars and schools - it only harms ourselves because it's happening in front of our own homes," he said.

"And we risk turning the working people, the poor of our neighbourhoods against us - because not unnaturally they are going to be afraid," La Peste said.

Maybe because of his mixed background, he takes an unusually balanced view of the trouble and of how to end it.

"First of all France must learn to say sorry - for history, for the colonies, because there is no equality of opportunity, because we can't get into nightclubs, because there are none of us on television or in the national assembly.

"But the youth must also learn to say thank you. It may be shocking for them - but in France at least people can still demonstrate and speak out," said La Peste.

[Universe Prince]

All right, how are these facts proven?

I've pointed to a few articles. I'm not sure what you expect me to do. Go to France and interview each every rioter?

You are not the only one I think is in denial , I think you are finding lots of sorces to quote who are in denial.

Ah. I see. Anyone not agreeing with you is in denial. Okay. Glad we cleared that up.