Author Topic: Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture  (Read 48631 times)

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Religious Dick

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Re: Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2008, 03:23:02 PM »

I'll get to the rest of your post later, but one thing I'd like to address right now - there are any number of photographs of these riots, not to mention a plethora of videos on youtube. Funnily enough, not a single one backs up your assertion!

If you can produce a visual record that backs up your assertion, I'd sure as hell like to see it. Because of all the photographs, and all the footage available on the net, I've yet to find a single one that does!


Then I suggest you, as usual, are not paying attention.

Given that it's pretty obvious that those people are standing around in the aftermath of a riot, and not actually rioting themselves, what are those supposed to prove?
I speak of civil, social man under law, and no other.
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Universe Prince

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Re: Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2008, 03:41:05 PM »

Given that it's pretty obvious that those people are standing around in the aftermath of a riot, and not actually rioting themselves, what are those supposed to prove?


Oh for the love of pizza... You, I suppose, have photos of people in turbans and beards rioting? Because images of young people in coats, sweatshirts and hoodies is pretty much all I find. Nothing whatever to indicate this is a band of Muslims or that the youth are acting out of some religious fervor.

Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Religious Dick

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Re: Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2008, 03:52:52 PM »

Oh for the love of pizza... You, I suppose, have photos of people in turbans and beards rioting?


As a matter of fact, I do. It's one of the first images that pops up when you google "French Riots".

I speak of civil, social man under law, and no other.
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Universe Prince

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Re: Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2008, 04:11:22 PM »




I hate to break this to you (no, not really), but that isn't rioting. That is protesting. And oddly enough, the sign is in English, not French. As far as people actually at, near or beside actual rioting in France, the photographs show police in riot gear and young people in typical Western clothing. So, when you said not a single photo backs up my assertion, not only were you clearly wrong, you were also hypocritical because there doesn't seem to be a single photo to support your assertion.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Plane

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Re: Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2008, 05:22:48 PM »

Several articles I read seemed to be stepping lightly round the involvement of Islam in the problems of riot in France.
http://eldib.wordpress.com/2008/02/18/france-over-a-1000-french-riot-police-raid-housing-projects/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4413964.stm

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2008/02/paris-french-police-swoop-on-paris-riot.html



Not this one , this author goes into great detail on how Islam and failure to assimilate is causeing two societies to rise alien to each other in France and Germany.

http://www.signandsight.com/features/470.html

"They used to burn dustbins and cars ? now they burn girls." These were the words of Kahina Benziane after her sister Sohane was raped, tortured and burned alive by schoolmates on October 4, 2002 in the Parisian suburb of Vitry.

Universe Prince

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Re: Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2008, 05:43:11 PM »
http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2007/11/29/why-we-dont-call-them-muslim-riots-in-paris-suburbs/

      In researching this post, I ask my Reuters Paris bureau colleague James Mackenzie what he found during his night out reporting in the riot-hit suburb of Villiers-le Bel. "It's a mixed immigrant community," he told me. "People saw the TV crews and came up to us to say it wasn't just about youths rioting. They accused the police of beating the youths. They also said there were constant I.D checks there ... I haven't heard or seen any credible suggestion of any Muslim mobilisation behind this. There may be Muslims among the rioters, but nothing even vaguely religious was mentioned when we talked to residents there."

Beur FM news editor Ahmed El KeiyFor another view, I called Ahmed El Keiy, the news editor of Beur FM, a radio station popular among young French of North African origin ("beur" is the slang name for these French-born youths). El Keiy runs an evening call-in show to discuss the news (I wrote about his Ramadan call-in about Islam just last month). "The main problem is the relationship between police and young people," he said. "The police are seen as enemies. They don't know how to talk to these youths. They also have to produce results -- they've been told they have to expel 25,000 illegal immigrants a year, so any Arab or African face they see, they think they're illegals and they do I.D. checks. It's very tense."

Having spent a long evening sitting in his studio last month listening to El Keiy and three imams discuss Ramadan and Islam with French Muslims who called in, I thought he if anyone would be sensitive to any Muslim angle to the rioting. "In 2005, we heard the politicians blaming the unrest on polygamy or saying there had been cries of 'Allah-o-akbar' but that was just the politicians talking," he said. "This time around, there was no mention of that. The religious element is not present in this at all."
      
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2008, 06:12:01 PM »
".......In the meantime the Dutch government is in a politically impossible position, unlike Wilders who has created a win-win situation. Wilders would consider the banning of his film by the Dutch government proof that the Netherlands is giving in to Islam. If the film does air and riots break out, this will prove Wilders' position that Islam is an intolerant religion. Is there a way out of this dilemma? "

http://www.signandsight.com/features/1668.html

Plane

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Re: Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2008, 06:13:10 PM »
Today, fils de pute, son of a whore, is the term of abuse that flies with the stones and petrol bombs hurled at police officers by young people. Or to be more precise, by boys. Girls do not figure in this "youth uprising". Stones were thrown in Paris in 1968, too. But the barricades were occupied by men and women, even if the leaders were all men. The revolt targeted authoritarian structures, but not the state as such. It was luxury shops that burned, not schools. And the war cry against the "pigs" was "CRS SS!" An inappropriate comparison, but at least a political one. Today?s equivalent is purely sexist: son of a bitch.

It is a fact: Of the six million first, second and now third-generation immigrants in France, the majority come from the Muslim states of the Maghreb, from France's former colonies Algeria and Morocco. This history does not make the present any simpler. What is striking is that the third generation ? and this applies equally in Germany ? are often less well integrated than their grandparents. And forty percent of these young people between 16 and 25 are unemployed. Or to be more precise, 25 percent of young men and 50 percent of young women. In social terms, then, the women have twice as much reason to protest.
http://www.signandsight.com/features/470.html

Universe Prince

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Re: Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2008, 06:31:15 PM »
And your point is...?

No one said there were no Muslims in France or that none are involved in the rioting. That does not mean, however, that the riots are specifically religiously motivated and wholly Muslim riots. There are likely also Christian youth involved. Possibly even some agnostics and atheists. So "Muslim riots" is not an accurate term.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Maccus Germanis

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Re: Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2008, 06:31:54 PM »

Ah! I see... Like France!


Like France? France has a host of issues that step from attempts to maintain a society that is in many respects rigid. Also, while I know a lot of people have wanted to blame the Muslims for the riots, as I have looked into the matter, there are also a lot of non-Muslim youth apparently involved. So no, my too clever friend, not like France.

As this thread was began by suggesting that Iranian love for Barbie could culturally subvert the ruling party of Iran, does the involvment of non-Muslim rioters actually prove that islam played no role in the riots?

Plane

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Re: Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2008, 06:43:37 PM »
And your point is...?

No one said there were no Muslims in France or that none are involved in the rioting. That does not mean, however, that the riots are specifically religiously motivated and wholly Muslim riots. There are likely also Christian youth involved. Possibly even some agnostics and atheists. So "Muslim riots" is not an accurate term.



I assert that they are heavily and not lightly influenced by Islam.
I further assert that the number of non muslims involved in these recent riots is small.

I know that you have found reporters reluctant to say so , but I have found several reports that attribute restraint to fear.

Plane

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Re: Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2008, 06:47:55 PM »
In Italy since September 11, the dangers of radical Islam were addressed soley by right-wing rabble-rousers. Finally Reset magazine has kicked off a proper debate. By Franz Haas
In the aftermath of the terrorist attacks on 11 September 2001, the Italian media and popular imagination, like those of the rest of the Western world, were haunted by horror visions. Italians imagined rockets being fired at the Vatican, aeroplanes flying into Milan Cathedral or bombs being planted on the already rudimentary metro networks of the major cities. Following the attacks on trains in Madrid and London, Italians each time had the feeling that they had once again narrowly escaped being a target and began to fear that Italy might have its own home-made terrorism. The police and the secret services kept Muslim prayer houses under surveillance, people were arrested, brought to trial or deported, but concrete plans for a terrorist attack - like those discovered in Germany in Septembe - were never found. Recently an Iraqi was arrested at Venice airport for allegedly "planning attacks," but more precise details of the investigations never transpired.

By contrast, the more obvious problems of living together with more or less radical Muslims in their own country are a constant theme in the Italian public sphere. The issues include building new mosques, the dispute over headscarves, veils and burqas, the restrictive dress codes for women and the "honour killings" of Muslim girls determined to adopt Western lifestyles. The case of Hina Saleem, a young Pakistani woman living in Brescia, who had her throat cut by her father assisted by other male members of her family because she wore the latest fashions and had an Italian fiance caused a major sensation in summer 2006. A representative of a Muslim women's organization investigating the murder recently received death threats from Islamic extremists. Female circumcision is also a horrifyingly widespread secret practice ? according to the newspaper Corriere della Sera, there are some 25,000 women with mutilated genitals living in Italy.

http://www.signandsight.com/features/1609.html

In view of such practices as "honour killings" and genital mutilation you don't need to be a pessimist to ask whether these horrific manifestations of an archaic way of life imposed by the dictates of theology will ever be rejected by all Muslims in the Western world or whether the principles of radical Islam are not fundamentally incompatible with those of the West today. As long as Europe is not even able to defend the principles of the Enlightenment (the basic tenets of which, despite all the reverses and negative sides in its dialectic, the West has done well to adhere to over the past two centuries) on its own territory, the discussion about anchoring "Christian values" in the constitution of the European Union will remain an idle luxury. An Islam that would be considered enlightened by European standards is still a far-off vision.

For too long warnings about the evils and dangers of radical Islam in Italy were the domain of the political Right and the xenophobic Lega Nord (Northern League) party. The alarm signals they issued were generally crude and simplistic and sometimes even dangerously tasteless. Recall, for example, the incident in February 2006 when a minister of the Berlusconi government had one of the controversial Danish Muhammad cartoons printed on a T-shirt and displayed it provocatively in front of television cameras (news story). This prompted protests in front of the Italian consulate in Libya that left eleven people dead. The appeals of journalist Oriana Fallaci, the figurehead of the anti-Islam movement in Italy who in her books "The Rage and Pride" (2001) and "The Force of Reason" (2004) made no bones about engaging in overt racism, were in a similar vein. In taking this approach she did this sensitive subject a disservice, for the result was that liberal and left-wing intellectuals distanced themselves still further from her, preferring to avoid the controversial issue altogether.


........................................

Italian television has repeatedly broadcast authentic film-clips and recordings of "hate preachers" calling on gatherings of Muslims to wage a holy war against the infidels. In March of this year the programme "Annozero," moderated by the popular journalist Michele Santoro, showed film footage shot with a hidden camera in which ? in the same spine-chilling manner of the new German film "Hamburger Lektionen" (see our feature) ? an Imam was shown preaching in Turin that there could be no dialogue with the infidels: "You have to kill them, basta." Connections have also been proven to exist between Islamic centres in Italy and the Hamburg cell that harboured the terrorists responsible for the 11 September attacks ? which makes the silence of leading intellectuals on the subject all the more puzzling. The writer Umberto Eco, for example, found even the "heroic appeals for press freedom" in the dispute about the Danish cartoons "excessive," while in his column in the weekly L'Espresso an enlightened shrug of the shoulders was all he could muster up in response to the phenomenon of fanatical Islam in his own country.

.................................................

Scialoja warns expressly about questionable sources of financing for the construction of new mosques and welcomes the planned referendum in Bologna (saying "I'm a bit Swiss in that respect") on the grounds that it would guarantee the Muslims greater legality. He is also sceptical about the alliance between the radical Italian Left and Islam. He believes the Left is deceiving itself: "They regard certain Islamic movements as representative of the grass roots, of the real proleteriat," he says, adding that they see in Islam "an anti-imperialist and anti-American movement." This assessment would seem to confirm that the two fronts from which critical thinkers like Mario Scialoja and Magdi Allam are being attacked are the extreme Left and radical Islam, as anyone prepared to sort through the tangle of blogospheres would discover.



« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 06:54:47 PM by Plane »

Maccus Germanis

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Re: Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2008, 06:53:58 PM »
And your point is...?

No one said there were no Muslims in France or that none are involved in the rioting. That does not mean, however, that the riots are specifically religiously motivated and wholly Muslim riots. There are likely also Christian youth involved. Possibly even some agnostics and atheists. So "Muslim riots" is not an accurate term.


Two persons [Mouhsin (15) and Lakamy (16)] on a motorcycle were killed after colliding with a police car on Sunday late in the afternoon in Villiers-le-Bel (Val d'Oise), triggering an eruption of incidents, notably trash can fires and meetings of youths, a police source reported. (...) [/i]
http://galliawatch.blogspot.com/2007/11/eruptions-of-violence.html


Some young men stood by the charred timbers of the town's police station, Tuesday laughing and surveying the damage.

Cem, 18, of Turkish origin, declined to give his name because he feared police reprisals. But he and his friend Karim, of Algerian descent, said they both had participated in rioting over the past two days.

"That's just the beginning," Cem said. "This is a war. There is no mercy. We want two cops dead."


http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/27/europe/france.php

Plane

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Re: Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2008, 06:58:04 PM »
Stefano Allievi, Professor of Sociology, scholar and expert in Islamic matters, cited by Adel Smith, a controversial Islamic figure, famous for his radical opinions and fiery gestures on various subjects (especially his polemic against the crucifix), has been sentenced to six months, as well as a monetary fine of 3,000 euros, for the opinions he expresses about Smith and his actions in his book Italian Islam, published by Einaudi. This sentence is even more surprising if we think of how often Professor Allievi has taken a stand for the guarantee of freedom of speech and expression of Muslims themselves, to studying and understanding whom he has dedicated over fifteen years of research.


http://www.resetdoc.org/EN/Allievi-Freedom.php

Universe Prince

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Re: Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2008, 11:47:19 PM »

As this thread was began by suggesting that Iranian love for Barbie could culturally subvert the ruling party of Iran, does the involvment of non-Muslim rioters actually prove that islam played no role in the riots?


Does the fact that some of the people involved are Muslim prove that the riots are religiously motivated?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--