Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture

[Rich]

>>Oh for the love of pizza... You, I suppose, have photos of people in turbans and beards rioting? Because images of young people in coats, sweatshirts and hoodies is pretty much all I find. Nothing whatever to indicate this is a band of Muslims or that the youth are acting out of some religious fervor.<<

You're the first person I've seen even try and deny most of the rioters were Muslim.

[Plane]

As this thread was began by suggesting that Iranian love for Barbie could culturally subvert the ruling party of Iran, does the involvement of non-Muslim rioters actually prove that Islam played no role in the riots?

Does the fact that some of the people involved are Muslim prove that the riots are religiously motivated?

They may not be religiously motivated , cross burnings are not truly religiously motivated either , why would "religiously motivated" be a consideration for anyone?

Would you say that "honor Killing " was religiously motivated? I would not , they are a matter of pride . But Honor Killing is a pecularuluarly Muslim practice , seldom seen in other than Muslim families. The rioters have no desire to become French and fit in to the French society and system because they are Muslim .

"Religiously Motivated" ha!  It is almost a change of subject.

[Universe Prince]

I assert that they are heavily and not lightly influenced by Islam.

Based upon what?

I know that you have found reporters reluctant to say so , but I have found several reports that attribute restraint to fear.

Yes, I know. Anyone who doesn't agree the riots are purely motivated by Islam must do so out of fear because, well, the people who say the riots are purely motivated by Islam just know it must be so. The Ruters blog post (http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2007/11/29/why-we-dont-call-them-muslim-riots-in-paris-suburbs/) doesn't read like a guy talking in fear. It reads like a guy defending ethical reporting behavior. I know that some folks are really eager to blame the Muslims as Muslims, but as best I can tell, the facts simply do not bear that out. Yes, some of the riots may be Muslim, but again, there appears to be zero religious motivation, so that some or even most are Muslim does not make these riots Muslim riots.

But at least I know now that we have already reached the point of any public disruption anywhere is now going to automatically be blamed on Muslims. The Muslim boogyman is here and here to stay. I figure any day now we'll be getting treated to "The Protocols of the Elders of Islam".

[Universe Prince]

Two persons [Mouhsin (15) and Lakamy (16)] on a motorcycle were killed after colliding with a police car on Sunday late in the afternoon in Villiers-le-Bel (Val d'Oise), triggering an eruption of incidents, notably trash can fires and meetings of youths, a police source reported. (...) [/i]
http://galliawatch.blogspot.com/2007/11/eruptions-of-violence.html


Some young men stood by the charred timbers of the town's police station, Tuesday laughing and surveying the damage.

Cem, 18, of Turkish origin, declined to give his name because he feared police reprisals. But he and his friend Karim, of Algerian descent, said they both had participated in rioting over the past two days.

"That's just the beginning," Cem said. "This is a war. There is no mercy. We want two cops dead."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/27/europe/france.php

I notice there is nothing in that post, even following the links, indicating a religious motivation.

[Universe Prince]

Stefano Allievi, Professor of Sociology, scholar and expert in Islamic matters...

So what is your point with that post?

[Rich]

>>But at least I know now that we have already reached the point of any public disruption anywhere is now going to automatically be blamed on Muslims.<<

Why? Because in this particular case Muslim's appear to be heavily involved? Muslim's are taking over Europe UP. That's born out by the numbers and recent history. Muslim's are generally very religious, and their motives are almost always religious. Are you denying that? If you are, it's you that's reached a point in which you've closed your eyes to what seems to be obvious to most everyone else.

[Universe Prince]

You're the first person I've seen even try and deny most of the rioters were Muslim.

I've never denied that. Part of the problem is that we don't actually know what the religious makeup of the groups of rioters is, because French police don't ask that question. But the issue is not whether the majority of the rioters are Muslim. The issue is whether that is enough to assume the rioters are rioting because they are Muslim, because they have some religious motivation. And the facts do not support that as being the case. And the fact that many of the rioters are also likely to be at least nominally Christian seems quite relevant in whether these are Muslim riots or youth riots. And frankly, I am surprised that some folks seem to think the only thing that matters is that Muslims are involved. It's a sort of "we know the truth so don't confuse us with the facts" attitude.

[Universe Prince]

"Religiously Motivated" ha!  It is almost a change of subject.

Religious motivation is a change of subject in talking about so-called "Muslim riots". Just what do you think Islam is?

[Religious Dick]

I notice there is nothing in that post, even following the links, indicating a religious motivation.

You're talking past the point: "Muslim" can be used as term of cultural affinity, as well as a religious one. I was raised as a Catholic. Despite the fact that I haven't been near a church in decades, certainly my behavior, perspectives and values are influenced by being a product of a Christian culture (any reference to "Christiandom" is immediately recognized as synonym for Western civilization, my personal beliefs notwithstanding). One thing is for sure - I'd stick out like a sore thumb in any Muslim culture!

Use of "Muslim" in this context would indicate that the group were of Arab or North African extraction, and products of a Muslim culture. Which is apparently borne out by the photographic, video and reported records. Whether or not they were yelling "Allah Akbar!" while they were torching cars is superfluous.

[Universe Prince]

Muslim's are taking over Europe UP. That's born out by the numbers and recent history.

No, not really.

 Muslim's are generally very religious,

Some are. Some are not.

and their motives are almost always religious. Are you denying that? If you are, it's you that's reached a point in which you've closed your eyes to what seems to be obvious to most everyone else.

No, my eyes are not closed. They are, in point of fact, looking at the facts. That I am not caught up in the fearmongering and in propping up the Muslim bogyman does not mean I am denying the reality of the situation. It means I'm looking at it clearly and critically. While I apparently the inclusion of Muslims makes religious jihad "obvious" to everyone else, I seek more than a surface judgment and propaganda noise. I do that with eyes wide open. And the view is sometimes frightening for reasons that seem lost on some people here.

[Universe Prince]

Use of "Muslim" in this context would indicate that the group were of Arab or North African extraction, and products of a Muslim culture. Which is apparently borne out by the photographic, video and reported records. Whether or not they were yelling "Allah Akbar!" while they were torching cars is superfluous.

So now we've gone from judging people based on religion to judging people based on what they look like. They look Arab or North African, therefore they are part of the Muslim "jihad" taking over Europe and are motivated by Muslim cultural something or other, hatred of the West, whatever. This is not getting better for your side of the argument.

[Religious Dick]

So now we've gone from judging people based on religion to judging people based on what they look like. They look Arab or North African, therefore they are part of the Muslim "jihad" taking over Europe and are motivated by Muslim cultural something or other, hatred of the West, whatever. This is not getting better for your side of the argument.

Given that in the interviews of the rioters, a hatred of the West was loudly and clearly expressed, I'd say that your side of the argument has deteriorated into absurdity.

[Universe Prince]

Given that in the interviews of the rioters, a hatred of the West was loudly and clearly expressed,

Show me.

[Universe Prince]

The rioters have no desire to become French

Many of the youth are already French.

 and fit in to the French society and system because they are Muslim .

Nothing I have seen to date on this indicates they hate France because they are Muslim. Or even just that they hate France itself. Mostly that they distrust and dislike the authorities who they see as oppressive and prejudiced.

[Universe Prince]

Given that in the interviews of the rioters, a hatred of the West was loudly and clearly expressed,

I've gone looking, and I can't find it. What I find is that comments made have to do with a distrust and severe dislike of French law enforcement and/or are about what may be institutionalized racism not just in law enforcement but in the local governments.