Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture

[Universe Prince]

Where do you get this hordes business?

I keep being told the Muslims are taking over Europe, that they hate the West, that they are out to take over our countries. Are you saying there are not hordes of Muslims waging cultural war on us all? You know, when I try pointing that sort of thing out on my own, I get told I'm ignoring the reality of the situation, that I have blinders on, that I'm denying the threat. But now suddenly I'm exaggerating? Amazing.

and who has said that all Muslims area a threat?

Possibly no one. But several people have laid down the implication, at least, that all Muslims are dangerous. Is that not the point of arguing that "Muslim's are taking over Europe" (Rich), that "The rioters have no desire to become French and fit in to the French society and system because they are Muslim" (you, Plane)? Muslims do not desire to fit in and are taking over Europe, but you're not saying all Muslims are not dangerous? Seems to me not that long ago, someone was arguing that we needed to be concerned about a Muslim fifth column...

I am looseing track of all the thigs you are looseing track of.

France has a serious problem caused by the incompatability of French and Islamic culture , I suppose you can quite well blame these problems on French culture , but that is a change of perspective and not a change of the facts.

I get in rebuttal to my posts, an article about imams calling for an end to the rioting, moderate/liberal Muslims calling for more moderate Islam, and now you're telling me French culture and Islamic culture are incompatible. I think what you're loosing track of is your own side of the argument.

Islam encourages seaprateness ,

But you're not saying all Muslims are a threat? Islam encourages or people encourage? Remember that bit about "the category you place this creature in holds more importance to you than the individual creature"? This would be a good place for me to use it.

the French feel beset by ungratefull foreighners who would mostly have died or lived in squalor if left behind in the old colonies , the Muslims feel shut out even if they are not orthodox serious worshippers.

But you're not saying all Muslims are a threat? Now pull the other one. Ungrateful foreigners? Oh for the love of Reagan's jelly beans... Yes, it's all the fault of those damn foreigners. Ungrateful bastards who insist on feeling shut out because they're Muslims. Yeah, that attitude doesn't make it seem like you're making Muslims out to be dangerous. If only black people would learn to act like proper white... oops, I mean, if only Muslims would learn to act like proper Westerners do. (Yes, I am being sarcastic.)

[Plane]

"....if only Muslims would learn to act like proper Westerners do.."

As French law demands.

[Plane]

Are you saying there are not hordes of Muslims waging cultural war on us all?

That is two subjects.


There are a lot more Muslims in Europe than there were , this number is growing.

There are Muslims wageing war on the culture they feel alienated from.


The second is a subset of the first ,

the first is not much of a problem but the growth of the set facilitates the growth of the subset.


I would guess that the violent subset might be smaller than 5% , because if it amounted to that much the number of violent incidents would be higher than it is.

It does amount to enough to cause a problem , because 1% willing to riot can bring together thousands in a big city.

[Maccus Germanis]

Polo?

I don't get it.

I had some expectation that this audience would answer "Polo." The nominal muslims that took to the streets saying, "in the name of allah" please act as though you've some home training, had some expectation of their audience.

Moderate islam doesn't exist. Apostates and Munafiq do exist. At least they exist right up to the point that their co-religionists start yelling Takfir. Some time after that, their continued existence becomes less predictable.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Moderate islam doesn't exist. Apostates and Munafiq do exist. At least they exist right up to the point that their religionists start yelling Takfir. Some time after that, their continued existence becomes less predictable.

==============================
The Koran is hardly moderate, but just as most Christians do not stone their disobedient children, as the Bible tells them to, most Muslims are not pedophiles, and are not in anything resembling a state of war with infidels and heathens.

Is Billy Graham an apostate because he would not stone a queer or naughty child?

[Maccus Germanis]

Moderate islam doesn't exist. Apostates and Munafiq do exist. At least they exist right up to the point that their religionists start yelling Takfir. Some time after that, their continued existence becomes less predictable.

==============================
The Koran is hardly moderate, but just as most Christians do not stone their disobedient children, as the Bible tells them to, most Muslims are not pedophiles, and are not in anything resembling a state of war with infidels and heathens.

Is Billy Graham an apostate because he would not stone a queer or naughty child?

Where are Christians called to stone disobedient children?

I ask not only, where the law that you refer to might be found, but to where that law does apply? Also, when was such edict given?

To prove -as if often enough assumed but never proven- that islam is just like Christianity, you will need to both show that the laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy were intended to be forcibly imposed on the entire world, and that Chirst's pacifist model is abrogated by such edict.

Do you really wish to contend that a prophet that replaced an ear is equal to one that removed 900 heads in one afternoon?

[Universe Prince]

I had some expectation that this audience would answer "Polo." The nominal muslims that took to the streets saying, "in the name of allah"

They said "Marco in the name of allah"? I'm no expert on Islam (and never claimed to be), but I'm not fully ignorant either, and I'm just not familiar with whatever it is you're trying to talk about.

please act as though you've some home training, had some expectation of their audience.

Believe or not, I have talked with a Muslim or two before, and also an extremely knowledgeable Christian missionary to the Middle East. I do have some idea what Muslims can be like in person. And for the most part, they're ordinary people trying to get by, in other words, they're a lot like the rest of us.

Moderate islam doesn't exist. Apostates and Munafiq do exist. At least they exist right up to the point that their co-religionists start yelling Takfir. Some time after that, their continued existence becomes less predictable.

Yeah, I kinda figured that would be your opinion.

[Universe Prince]

To prove -as if often enough assumed but never proven- that islam is just like Christianity,

That was not the point. The point was that moderate Muslims exist.

[Maccus Germanis]

I did in fact, say that moderate muslims do exist. I call them munafiq, because they haven't fully submitted to islam. They have attempted to various degrees of success to moderate a decidedly immoderate faith.

One could possibly argue that "moderates" that took to the streets of France had ulterior motives of initiating hudna. But, one shouldn't argue that those moderates were addressing Western youth with, "in the name of allah." -Not at least if one should like to be taken seriously-

The honesty with which would be reformers such as Irshad Manji and Tawfik Hamid approach their, I think thankless and impossible, tasks makes it impossible to accuse them of taquia. They are "moderate" and do call themselves muslim. They, and others, -which are much like you and I- do exist. And they know to fear, if they should hear Takfir shouted after them. These are the type of persons that would have been indoors, if not out of the country, when muslim youth were provoked to riot in France.

[Plane]

To prove -as if often enough assumed but never proven- that islam is just like Christianity,

That was not the point. The point was that moderate Muslims exist.

I beleive that a lot of moderate Muslims exist , but this is not what we were talking about was it?

[Xavier_Onassis]

anything resembling a state of war with infidels and heathens.

Is Billy Graham an apostate because he would not stone a queer or naughty child?


Where are Christians called to stone disobedient children?
=================================================
This verse in is in Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Islam and Christianity are not the same, of course. I never said they were,

But both have a goodly share of wacko nonsense such as this in their holy books.

Jesus did not say specifically that all of the Old Testament should be observed, but neither did he say that it should not.

[Universe Prince]

I did in fact, say that moderate muslims do exist. I call them munafiq, because they haven't fully submitted to islam. They have attempted to various degrees of success to moderate a decidedly immoderate faith.

That would be your opinion based on, apparently, your opinion of Islam. This is sort of like saying, Protestants exist but only as not fully submitted Catholics. I just don't buy the argument, particularly since I've listened to Muslims argue that there are interpretations of their scriptures that are not in line with the fundamentalist Muslims teachings of Islamic extremists.

One could possibly argue that "moderates" that took to the streets of France had ulterior motives of initiating hudna. But, one shouldn't argue that those moderates were addressing Western youth with, "in the name of allah." -Not at least if one should like to be taken seriously-

That assumes that one cannot be Western and Muslim at the same time. I don't make that assumption.

[Universe Prince]

I beleive that a lot of moderate Muslims exist , but this is not what we were talking about was it?

Well, someone was (at least in part), but no one was paying attention to it.

[Plane]

I beleive that a lot of moderate Muslims exist , but this is not what we were talking about was it?

Well, someone was (at least in part), but no one was paying attention to it.

I liked this article.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Islam

There is a fight going on within Islam , it is just as epic as the reformation , unfortunately the reactionary side of the argument has most of the money and all of the guns.

[Cynthia]

UP, where's your source for this? Interesting.

Sorry about that. Plane posted it in reply #64. The original source is http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0224/p10s01-woeu.html.

Thanks, UP.

With all that is going on in the world, I suppose I welcome Jay Leno's take of the subject;

Why leave any God out of the mix at this point in time. . . .

On the job or off. Islamic women/men/children are just  praciticing their religion. Right?  No different from the Christian, as I see it.

Unless those practicing a "ReLiGIon" are members of the soap scum house of cards i.e. those who practice a radicalized version of said religion (blowing up pregnant women in order to win the west)  ( blowing up Dr's offices -abortion clinics in order to win some sort of crazy point)

If an individual believes in Mickey Mouse...I say..Hey no problem. You're secure in that eh?
Why are people so quick to become defensive and hateful towards others.....or quick to judge when it comes to faith?

Insecurity is the only answer that comes to mind.
God's love is massive. God's love is the only thing worth living for.
Tell that to an atheist, and you get put into a corner of shame. Why?

Not enough self security ---insecurity within one's own being, bottom line, imo.

I celebrate the women's choices to bow to their faith.

Jay Leno..rock on.....now is NOT the time to be bashing anything that has to do with something that is of love, and peace.

peace out-