Defeat Tehran not with bombs but with culture

[Universe Prince]

But there is an obvious difference between an ideology and a person, a religion and a person, and I have no trouble making that distinction.

This diffrence is not so odvious to you that I could depend on it when I am discussing this with you.  How many times now have you remade the point that Muslims are people and that Islam is not monolithic?

Ahem. I will, for the sake of understanding, repeat what I said earlier:

How could your communication fail so utterly when you said the existence of differing theological opinions in Islam "makes no diffrence at all when discussing the problem caused by Islam" but meant "there is no point in pointing at the peacefull Muslims when we are discussing the violent ones"? Hm. Gee, I just don't know. I guess that depends on how much you actually expected me to assume that "discussing the problem caused by Islam" meant "discussing the violent ones." While I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you, to me, "Islam" does not equate to "the violent ones". "Islam" means, to me, "Islam". So when you say, "the problem caused by Islam", oddly enough I conclude that you mean to speak of Islam because you used the word "Islam". And when you say, "the problem caused by Islam", as strange as it may seem to you, I conclude that you are saying there is a problem caused by Islam. So at this point I am left with the question, if you did not mean "the problem caused by Islam", then why did you say it?

Lets go on ahead and consider it RESOLVED that Muslims are 100% people and are not monolithic.

As I pointed out myself several pages ago.

Heh. Well, thank you for pointing it out. No one else was going to do it. I'm glad you did.

[Plane]

[/td][td]How could your communication fail so utterly when you said the existence of differing theological opinions in Islam "makes no diffrence at all when discussing the problem caused by Islam" but meant "there is no point in pointing at the peacefull Muslims when we are discussing the violent ones"?

This may be a good time for you to actually cite how a discussion ofthe various parts of Islam is appropriate in the context of Terrorism?

[Plane]

Several articles I read seemed to be stepping lightly round the involvement of Islam in the problems of riot in France.
http://eldib.wordpress.com/2008/02/18/france-over-a-1000-french-riot-police-raid-housing-projects/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4413964.stm

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2008/02/paris-french-police-swoop-on-paris-riot.html



Not this one , this author goes into great detail on how Islam and failure to assimilate is causeing two societies to rise alien to each other in France and Germany.

http://www.signandsight.com/features/470.html

"They used to burn dustbins and cars ? now they burn girls." These were the words of Kahina Benziane after her sister Sohane was raped, tortured and burned alive by schoolmates on October 4, 2002 in the Parisian suburb of Vitry.

wow, Plane.....

Yes that article was pretty strong .

Struggleing to maintain their culture some immagrants preserve culture that can't be assimilated into the French way of life .

[Plane]

But there is an obvious difference between an ideology and a person, a religion and a person, and I have no trouble making that distinction.

This difference is not so obvious to you that I could depend on it when I am discussing this with you.  How many times now have you remade the point that Muslims are people and that Islam is not monolithic?

Ahem. I will, for the sake of understanding, repeat what I said earlier:

How could your communication fail so utterly when you said the existence of differing theological opinions in Islam "makes no difference at all when discussing the problem caused by Islam" but meant "there is no point in pointing at the peacefull Muslims when we are discussing the violent ones"? Hm. Gee, I just don't know. I guess that depends on how much you actually expected me to assume that "discussing the problem caused by Islam" meant "discussing the violent ones." While I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you, to me, "Islam" does not equate to "the violent ones". "Islam" means, to me, "Islam". So when you say, "the problem caused by Islam", oddly enough I conclude that you mean to speak of Islam because you used the word "Islam". And when you say, "the problem caused by Islam", as strange as it may seem to you, I conclude that you are saying there is a problem caused by Islam. So at this point I am left with the question, if you did not mean "the problem caused by Islam", then why did you say it?

Lets go on ahead and consider it RESOLVED that Muslims are 100% people and are not monolithic.

As I pointed out myself several pages ago.

Heh. Well, thank you for pointing it out. No one else was going to do it. I'm glad you did.

See reply 63.

There is a lot of variety in Islam but there is a problem of Al Quieda recruitment occuring in all parts of it includeing parts that should know better from long exposure to Europe or America at close range.

[Universe Prince]

There is a lot of variety in Islam but there is a problem of Al Quieda recruitment occuring in all parts of it includeing parts that should know better from long exposure to Europe or America at close range.

And will that recruitment be slowed or halted by military action or by a change in the culture, by Western troops or by moderates leading a reform movement, by entrenching an Us vs. Them mentality or by encouraging cultural exchange through things like trade (maybe like selling Barbie dolls, hm)?

[Plane]

There is a lot of variety in Islam but there is a problem of Al Quieda recruitment occuring in all parts of it includeing parts that should know better from long exposure to Europe or America at close range.

And will that recruitment be slowed or halted by military action or by a change in the culture, by Western troops or by moderates leading a reform movement, by entrenching an Us vs. Them mentality or by encouraging cultural exchange through things like trade (maybe like selling Barbie dolls, hm)?

That Al Queda recruitment can occur in all the branches of Islam makes the pointing out that Islam is not monolitihic moot.
Barbie is irritateing to them , we are free to do a lot of things that irritate them .

Barbie is one of the cultural incursionsthat leads to thundering against us from their pulpits. It would be better for our relationship with them for us to forbid Barbie manufacture , prosicute homosexuals  , mandate chadors for sunbathers , stone cheeky newspaper cartoonists , etc , just as they say we should .

Our Cultural products like Dolls and tv shows and music seem like an invaders influence to the reactionary , and what purportion of the total is Reactionary?

People , they are people , the Umma is not monolithic but is made of factions which is the essense of what we are discussing.

[Universe Prince]

That Al Queda recruitment can occur in all the branches of Islam makes the pointing out that Islam is not monolitihic moot.

Oh. I guess then we should tell all the moderate Muslims to shut up and give up. Yeah, yeah, you didn't say that. But what the frak is your point?

Barbie is one of the cultural incursionsthat leads to thundering against us from their pulpits. It would be better for our relationship with them for us to forbid Barbie manufacture , prosicute homosexuals  , mandate chadors for sunbathers , stone cheeky newspaper cartoonists , etc , just as they say we should .

Right. So your solution then is...?

Our Cultural products like Dolls and tv shows and music seem like an invaders influence to the reactionary , and what purportion of the total is Reactionary?

A better question would be, what percentage has Barbie dolls?

People , they are people , the Umma is not monolithic but is made of factions which is the essense of what we are discussing.

Oh. Okay. So, um, I'll try again. Will recruitment by al Qaeda be slowed or halted by military action or by a change in the culture, by Western troops or by moderates leading a reform movement, by entrenching an Us vs. Them mentality or by encouraging cultural exchange through things like trade (maybe like selling Barbie dolls, hm)?

[Xavier_Onassis]

Perhaps in lieu of our soldiers selling Barbies, all they would need to do is air a Barbie cartoon show. Or even more modern, a Bratz show. The Bratz dolls have huge heads and gigantic flirtatious eyes are far more whorish than Barbie and have been outselling Barbie in the US and other markets, for some reason. In the Bratz cartoons, they are generally acquisitive little consumers, and about as unIslamic a cartoon as you could imagine.

If you look at a Barbie, you think that she is about to enter a beauty pageant, and that her boyfriend Ken is probably gay and just a beard for show. If you look at a Bratz girl, you know that she is about to find a John and turn tricks and buy high fashion clothes with the proceeds.

Bratz are less racial: there is not a white Ur-Bratz with a beige Mexican girlfriend and another Black one: all Bratz girs seem to be equal in billing.

[Plane]

That Al Queda recruitment can occur in all the branches of Islam makes the pointing out that Islam is not monolitihic moot.

Oh. I guess then we should tell all the moderate Muslims to shut up and give up. Yeah, yeah, you didn't say that. But what the frak is your point?

Barbie is one of the cultural incursionsthat leads to thundering against us from their pulpits. It would be better for our relationship with them for us to forbid Barbie manufacture , prosicute homosexuals  , mandate chadors for sunbathers , stone cheeky newspaper cartoonists , etc , just as they say we should .

Right. So your solution then is...?

Our Cultural products like Dolls and tv shows and music seem like an invaders influence to the reactionary , and what purportion of the total is Reactionary?

A better question would be, what percentage has Barbie dolls?

People , they are people , the Umma is not monolithic but is made of factions which is the essense of what we are discussing.

Oh. Okay. So, um, I'll try again. Will recruitment by al Qaeda be slowed or halted by military action or by a change in the culture, by Western troops or by moderates leading a reform movement, by entrenching an Us vs. Them mentality or by encouraging cultural exchange through things like trade (maybe like selling Barbie dolls, hm)?

No ,those barbie dolls are gonna get some people killed.
Not more than direct attacks , but in addition.

Please remember we are talking about a large veriety of people , but there is a heavy weighting on one end of the spectrum , only a small number want the change that Barbie represents , a much larger reactionary element feels threatened by cultureal imperialism.

It does not help to irritate them better , so no, selling more Barbies to them would help in no way at all. It just makes them increaseingly defensive , defending their dignity and their culture from the incursion of our culture is one of the compelling recruitmant arguments of the Al Queda. They already talk about Barbie , and Hefner , and gay pride parades et cetra , they hate us for our Freedoms.

It would be nicer to irritate them less , if that is impossible (it might be impossible) then Al queida recruiting needs to be curtailed by makeing the Al Queda method seem innefective , perhaps by shooting their leadership frequently, foiling their plans more often than not and keeping them on the run. Who would enlist as crew on the Titanic if it is already listing?

[Universe Prince]

No ,those barbie dolls are gonna get some people killed.
Not more than direct attacks , but in addition.

And yet, the people who live there keep smuggling them in anyway. Should we ally ourselves with the Muslim leadership and stop the people from smuggling them in?

Please remember we are talking about a large veriety of people , but there is a heavy weighting on one end of the spectrum , only a small number want the change that Barbie represents , a much larger reactionary element feels threatened by cultureal imperialism.

It does not help to irritate them better , so no, selling more Barbies to them would help in no way at all. It just makes them increaseingly defensive , defending their dignity and their culture from the incursion of our culture is one of the compelling recruitmant arguments of the Al Queda. They already talk about Barbie , and Hefner , and gay pride parades et cetra , they hate us for our Freedoms.

It would be nicer to irritate them less , if that is impossible (it might be impossible) then Al queida recruiting needs to be curtailed by makeing the Al Queda method seem innefective , perhaps by shooting their leadership frequently, foiling their plans more often than not and keeping them on the run. Who would enlist as crew on the Titanic if it is already listing?

So... let me see if I got this straight, cultural "imperialism" is going to increase recruitment to terrorist groups, but killing some of their leaders is going to convince them to stay home? I gotta say, imo, that makes absolutely no sense at all. "The beatings will continue until morale improves" is funny but impractical.

[Plane]

No ,those barbie dolls are gonna get some people killed.
Not more than direct attacks , but in addition.

And yet, the people who live there keep smuggling them in anyway. Should we ally ourselves with the Muslim leadership and stop the people from smuggling them in?

Please remember we are talking about a large veriety of people , but there is a heavy weighting on one end of the spectrum , only a small number want the change that Barbie represents , a much larger reactionary element feels threatened by cultureal imperialism.

It does not help to irritate them better , so no, selling more Barbies to them would help in no way at all. It just makes them increaseingly defensive , defending their dignity and their culture from the incursion of our culture is one of the compelling recruitmant arguments of the Al Queda. They already talk about Barbie , and Hefner , and gay pride parades et cetra , they hate us for our Freedoms.

It would be nicer to irritate them less , if that is impossible (it might be impossible) then Al queida recruiting needs to be curtailed by makeing the Al Queda method seem innefective , perhaps by shooting their leadership frequently, foiling their plans more often than not and keeping them on the run. Who would enlist as crew on the Titanic if it is already listing?

So... let me see if I got this straight, cultural "imperialism" is going to increase recruitment to terrorist groups, but killing some of their leaders is going to convince them to stay home? I gotta say, imo, that makes absolutely no sense at all. "The beatings will continue until morale improves" is funny but impractical.

I didn't invent the term Cultural Imperialism , it is a real issue everywhere but here , we alone don't seem to care that the World is becomeing Americanised.

This is the flip side of Americans who want all immagrants to speak English .

[Plane]

That Al Queda recruitment can occur in all the branches of Islam makes the pointing out that Islam is not monolitihic moot.

Oh. I guess then we should tell all the moderate Muslims to shut up and give up. Yeah, yeah, you didn't say that. But what the frak is your point?

I was not even going here , you pulled the conversation twards the idea that Islam has a lot of factions as if with a tow truck , why do I need a point on a Subject I consider moot?

Barbie is one of the cultural incursionsthat leads to thundering against us from their pulpits. It would be better for our relationship with them for us to forbid Barbie manufacture , prosicute homosexuals  , mandate chadors for sunbathers , stone cheeky newspaper cartoonists , etc , just as they say we should .

Right. So your solution then is...?

Cultural assimilation is what the opposition considers to be the root problem , we are exporting our culture and refuseing to learn proper behavior . We should win this contest .  When they see a loss comeing they might allow us to quit , we don't really care if they buy Barbies or not .

Our Cultural products like Dolls and tv shows and music seem like an invaders influence to the reactionary , and what purportion of the total is Reactionary?

A better question would be, what percentage has Barbie dolls?

Better why? Don't you mean you ned to know the ratio of reactionarys to progressives? Unfortunately it is a high ratio.

People , they are people , the Umma is not monolithic but is made of factions which is the essense of what we are discussing.

Oh. Okay. So, um, I'll try again. Will recruitment by al Qaeda be slowed or halted by military action or by a change in the culture, by Western troops or by moderates leading a reform movement, by entrenching an Us vs. Them mentality or by encouraging cultural exchange through things like trade (maybe like selling Barbie dolls, hm)?

Therse are PEOPLE we are discussing !Barbie dolls are not people , I would not want to get killed over the fate of Barbie , are you rejecting the idea that  cultural exchange is motivateing murder? I woiuldn't kill the worst one of them just for Barbie. I wish this were reciprocal.

[Universe Prince]

I didn't invent the term Cultural Imperialism

I'm sure you didn't. That does not, however, cause your suggested solution to make sense.

This is the flip side of Americans who want all immagrants to speak English .

What? How do... no, nevermind. Not gonna go there.

[Universe Prince]

Cultural assimilation is what the opposition considers to be the root problem , we are exporting our culture and refuseing to learn proper behavior . We should win this contest

Then let's, uh, keep doing it.

Therse are PEOPLE we are discussing !Barbie dolls are not people

Really? They're so life-like... no.

are you rejecting the idea that  cultural exchange is motivateing murder?

I'm rejecting the idea that ending cultural exchange is the best way to effect cultural change.

[Plane]

I'm rejecting the idea that ending cultural exchange is the best way to effect cultural change.

Just as long as you realise that it is not a peacefull solution , they are fighting to preserve their way of life , your solution will have us shooting each other ,just as often as any other.