For Love of Judaism

[_JS]

There are some folks in here who do two things constantly:

1. They defend Israel no matter what that nation's government does.
2. They constantly use the terms Islamofascism or Islamo-nazi.

So we have a situation in Italy and the UK were real Fascists won elections. I'm not talking about right-wingers who get labeled "fascist" by their detractors. I'm talking about politicians who are Fascists and make no qualms about that fact.

In Rome the Jewish community protested the new mayor and PM Burlesconi's fascist references in his victory speech. The BNP picked up council seats in the UK, including a coveted seat on the GLA.

Real Fascists. No semantics. No invented terms to inspire hatred. True fascists who joined Fascist parties.

Yet, these same crusaders for Israel and courageous captains-of-the-guard, vigilantly pursuing Islamic militarism wherever it may hide - said nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

That leads me to ponder two points.

1. They really could give a damn less about the Jewish people. The important thing is the Israeli state and its usefulness. I'd go further and say that Ethiopian Jews, for example, are ultimately meaningless. They have no western values or European culture. The important thing is the Israeli state and how they can be used to kill Muslims.

2. Fascism isn't an enemy at all. The moniker is simply useful to tag onto the end of Islam because it degrades all of Islam. Fascists in Europe are perfectly acceptable, if not appreciated. After all, they are legitimate allies with the right-wing and no one loathes illegal immigration and absolutely loves uniculturalism more than true Fascists. Nationalism is their lynchpin, how bad can real European fascists be to the right wing?

[Plane]

The moniker is simply useful to tag onto the end of Islam because it degrades all of Islam.

Quite the contrary, a label is needed to differentiarate between Islamic warmongers and the people of Islam who are not eager to make war . Islamo fascist is not absolutely correct , but it  is very descriptive of the subset and prevents the denegration of all Islam.

Perhaps some other term for violence loveing Islamists would work , but it certainly would not work to use no term that made the differentiation , untill a better nom de gurre is chosen Islamofacisist does quite well to prevent the denegration of all Islam together.


What is your suggestion for calling them?

[Plane]

So we have a situation in Italy and the UK were real Fascists won elections. I'm not talking about right-wingers who get labeled "fascist" by their detractors. I'm talking about politicians who are Fascists and make no qualms about that fact.

That is a bit hard to understand , one would think that the party would have such baggage as would doom its every purpose, but you never know the Democrats were associated with the Confederacy for years after the tragic four years oif the War between the states. When they proposed Horace Greely for President their sponsorship practicly enshured his loss. But eventually they recuperated and today are recognised as legitamate .

Between Jefferson Davis and Woodro Wilson was fifty years give or take a decade , isn't the facist recuperation on bout the same order of magnitude?

[Christians4LessGvt]

please let me know when italians do this (x 1000) in the name of italy























then i'll start worrying

[Universe Prince]

please let me know when italians do this (x 1000) in the name of italy

[...]

then i'll start worrying

So you don't care about fascists so long as they're not terrorists?

[Plane]

please let me know when italians do this (x 1000) in the name of italy

[...]

then i'll start worrying

So you don't care about fascists so long as they're not terrorists?

Good point , a facist who minds his own business ought to have the right to freedom of thought , no matter how goofy the thoughts are.

An Islamofascist who ws not trying to fill infidel graves ought to be given the same consideration.

But a terrorist is someone who has gone beyond the pale, and at that point we care about his thinking for the sake of stopping him , catching him and preventing his recruitment.

[Universe Prince]

Good point , a facist who minds his own business ought to have the right to freedom of thought , no matter how goofy the thoughts are.

For the most part, I agree. However, we're not talking about fascists who are minding their own business. We're talking about fascists who have run for and been elected to public office, and are therefore intent on minding other people's business as well. So I ask again: you don't care about fascists so long as they're not terrorists?

[Plane]

Good point , a facist who minds his own business ought to have the right to freedom of thought , no matter how goofy the thoughts are.

For the most part, I agree. However, we're not talking about fascists who are minding their own business. We're talking about fascists who have run for and been elected to public office, and are therefore intent on minding other people's business as well. So I ask again: you don't care about fascists so long as they're not terrorists?

Peacefull facist seems sorta like an Oximoron , but if they are peacefull and fairly elected I don't see our intrest in opposeing them , other than to provide argument against their errors , if they are peacefull we can be too.

[Rich]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, I think these fascists are probably a reaction to socialism and creeping communism. Which are also the enemy of all. Being a fascist doesn't mean you're automatically antisemitic.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Berlesconi might be a reaction to socialism, but "creeping communism", oh please. Communism is largely defunct.

No one believes that Communists of the Soviet sort, or even the old-style Italian sort are a threat to anyone.

I agree that Fascism is not by nature anti-Semitic or even anti-Zionist.

And there is a huge difference between Semitism, which preaches that Jews need to be eliminated for a country to recapture economic control of itself from a conspiracy of Jewish bankers, Masons, etc., and and Zionism, which preaches that Jews are superior at least in Israel, and deserve their own country, even  that entails pushing Palestinians aside and/or treating them as second class people (not even entitled to citizenship in their ancestral homeland).

If you believe that all people have equal rights, I fail to see how you can favor Zionism.

Some Jews do, because they believe that their special arrangement with God makes them "special".
 
Some Fundie Christians do, because they believe that the prophecies in the Book of Revelation in the New Testament requires that (a) all Jews return to Israel, (2) that a Third Temple be built (about where the Dome of the Rock & Al Aksa Mosque are today) and (3) a large number, perhaps even all Jews will become Christians when (4) Jesus returns. There will be a Battle at Armageddon and God's guys will win, of course.

I suppose other people favor Zionism because they are Muslims and at the present time, Israel is a enemy to many Muslims, and of course a enemy of an enemy is a friend.

The Zionists believe the  Fundie Christians are nuts, because they don't think Jesus was the Messiah or is returning. They won't say so, however, because one should never look the proverbial gift horse that does not shit on your proverbial rug in its proverbial mouth.

[_JS]

Wow. I am not in the least bit surprised.

I think that my two points were well confirmed.

CU4: I could show you pictures of what Italian Fascists have done in the name of Italy, but I'll spare the forum the ridiculousness of that tangent. Needless to say, the Roman Jewish population found it reprehensible enough to protest. Yet, you quite clearly know what's better for the Jewish people than they do.

Plane: It did not take Fascism long to recover from World War II at all. In fact, Franco survived the war just fine. Pinochet was a member of a Fascist party (again, a real Fascist party -not something simply called that as a derogatory comment) and you'll find people defending him here. The Peron family is even glorified in modern culture, yet they too were Fascists. Chiang Kai-Sheck was as well.

Being a fascist doesn't mean you're automatically antisemitic.

Not necessarily, that's true. In Italy it was alarming enough for the Jewish people there to protest. In Britain, the BNP is more racist than anti-semitic. They genuinely dislike anyone of Asian or African ancestry and homosexuals as well.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The Peron family is even glorified in modern culture, yet they too were Fascists.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This certainy applies to Juan Domoingo Peron and perhaps Evita. His second wife Isabel was more of a weirdo than a Fascist. She followed the dictates of an astrologer named Jos? L?pez Rega. He fled to the US when the rightwing generals threw Isabel Peron out in a coup, and then was extradited and later died in BA in prison. He started out being a bodyguard to Peron and then became Isabel's secretary. If you wanted to see her, you had to go through Lopez Rega.


Peron called his part "Justicialista". It may have Fascist elements, such as nationalism and syndicalism, but it is not really Fascist these at least today with the Kirchners. Still, I doubt I'd vote for them if I were Argentine.

Hugo Banzer of Bolivia was a bit of a Fascist. More than a bit, actually. Alfredo Stoessner of Paraguay's Blanco Party was certainly Fascist in its methods.

Nationalism tends to make Jews feel excluded in most places, perhaps because they see themselves as Jews first and Italians, Chileans, Argentines or whatever, first. In the USSR, Jews were called "Cosmopolitan", which was not used in a flattering way.

[Rich]

>>Berlesconi might be a reaction to socialism, but "creeping communism", oh please. Communism is largely defunct.<<

I guess you've never heard of China, North Korea, or Cuba.

>>No one believes that Communists of the Soviet sort, or even the old-style Italian sort are a threat to anyone.<<

There are plenty of people who view China as a threat. Then there's North Korea and it's vixation with nuclear missles.

>>I agree that Fascism is not by nature anti-Semitic or even anti-Zionist.<<

Pigs do fly.

[Plane]

Communism is dead in the way that Facism is dead , that is to say ,not quite.


So it took the Democratic party more time to recover from their infamous trechery than it took the Facists?

So mare Americans more or less forgiveing of a party than are Europeans?

[Maccus Germanis]

Let's see, if I've been paying proper attention during the past five years, this is where I'm supposed to point out support -albeit token- of the BNP by Jewish communities, point out the fall-out between Center for Vigilant Freedom/Gates of Vienna with LGF/IBA over Vlaams Belang, and suggest that you've miscounted when you say that anti-jihad bloggers have, "said nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero." to express concerns over facism. I'm sure that these "crusaders" to which you refer, are just a "tiny minority of extremists."


But I'd much rather discuss real facism. Anyone who favors authoritarian enforcement of, however warm and fuzzy, ideals of "community property" is an actual facist. As such, some facists are more troubling than others. I do not mean to suggest that you have some "final solution" planned for dissenters that believe in private ownership. By similar comparison, I do choose Khateab over Hizbollah.

But then I've never been such a fan of suggesting that "terroism" or "facism" provided the impetus to attacks against us and other modern nations. I'm much more forthcoming in saying that islam, as defined by the koran, hadith, and life of a murderous pedophille did provide said impetus. "Islamofacist" gives a bad name to facism, rather than the other way around.

Facism is inherently dangerous, even when distinctions can be made between the most dangerous and most hypocritical. Facist parties will continue to gain support by the overuse and misuse of the word facist, and the inablity of individualists to suggest solutions to an actual problem of jihad. These facists, will likely by their own fire get burned, but that does not disprove that they are fighting fire.