For Love of Judaism

[Xavier_Onassis]

Islam predates Fascism by twelve centuries or so. The Koran is largely written in gibberish, which I am guessing is at least as unintelligible to most modern Muslims as the KJV of the Bible is to most Christians. Mohammad was a violent pedophile, but then again he lived in times that were even more violent than he was, and at least as pedophilic. But ritual is the most important feature of pretty much every religion after several centuries pass. What one wears to Church is certainly more of a concern to many Christians as giving all to the poor and following a guy in sandals, especially since there are few guys in sandals to follow.

I think you can trace the rise of Wahabbi fanaticism, which is at the core of the Islamic Fundie movement to two things: the failed attempt of the Soviets to take over Afghanistan in the 1970's and the sharp drop in oil prices in the 1980's. The Soviets, triggered by the Shiite revolution in Iran, decided that Afghanistan was a threat to them in their own "stans": Uzbekhistan, Tajikistan, Khirghistan and Azerbaijan. There are a lot of Azeris in Iran, and the Tajiks are poor cousins to the Persians.

Of course, the Iranian Revolution was at least partially due to the US deposing the democratically elected secular Mohammad Mossadegh back in 1953. When the Shah of Shahs got colon cancer and no doctor dared examine his regal fundament to diagnose him ad treat him in time, then he got very ill, and the Ayatollah was standing in the wings to replace him with something that the CIA could not replace.
One could say that the Islamic "revival" is a case of the CIA's chickens coming home to roost.


The Saudis usually were able to provide make-work jobs for a lot of undereducated young men in various industries, but the the price of oil declined to where they could only subsidize jobs in what the Saudis call the Commission for the Protection of Virtue and the Suppression of Vice  (Mutawas) http://amislam.com/mutawas.htm, and instead of learning how to process bureaucratic forms or supervise Pakistani and Filipino immigrant workers, these young shebobs learned religious fanaticism. Imagine what the Klan or our local fundies (guys like Farrakhan or the 700 Club) might spawn if it were subsidized by the government .

It would be nice if the Saudis, now enriched like never before, would stop all government assistance to the Mutawas. I am not sure how the US could pressure them into doing so. But I think it would do more toward improving security for Americans than bombing Iran.

[Christians4LessGvt]

"CU4: I could show you pictures of what Italian Fascists have done in the name of Italy"

JS but I live in 2008, not in the 1940's.
Italian Fascists today are not doing anywhere near the damage IslamoFacist are.
You and others love to deny reality and pretend equatement.
But the present day, the day we live in, damage meter is not even close.

There are not governments all over the world spending billions
to combat a real threat from "Italian Facists/Italian Terror/Italian Radicals".
There are governments all over the world spending hundreds of millions
to combat Islamic Radicals. We have very recent track records with the
Muslim Facists (or whatever you wanna call them) blowing up shit almost
everyday all over the world, if we see that happen with the so called newly
elected "Italian Facists" then they would be roundly condemned and probably
voted out of office. Thats another difference, no one can vote out Bin Laden
in an election. There is NO COMPARISON in the present day world with
Bin Laden & Burlesconi & Company.

[_JS]

And that is my exact point.

It has nothing to do with Fascism, itself. Just as the infatuation with Israel has nothing to do with the Jewish people and the horrors of the Holocaust.

For the American right wing Israel is merely a means to an end as are the Jewish inhabitants. The same is true of Fascism. When you get down to the heart of it, Fascism is admired by the right. Or to be more fair, by a segment (though a large segment) of the right wing. BNP rhetoric and statements have crept into this very forum, used as ammunition against illegal immigration.

Both Judaism and Fascism are simply tools, a means to an end.

[Religious Dick]

And that is my exact point.

It has nothing to do with Fascism, itself. Just as the infatuation with Israel has nothing to do with the Jewish people and the horrors of the Holocaust.

For the American right wing Israel is merely a means to an end as are the Jewish inhabitants. The same is true of Fascism. When you get down to the heart of it, Fascism is admired by the right. Or to be more fair, by a segment (though a large segment) of the right wing. BNP rhetoric and statements have crept into this very forum, used as ammunition against illegal immigration.

Both Judaism and Fascism are simply tools, a means to an end.

I'd be interested in hearing how you define "fascism", since it appears to me you're using the term rather loosely.

As per the BNP's success in Britain, do I need to point out that that probably could have been avoided had the government implemented reasonable restrictions on immigration, and implemented policies which encouraged assimilation, rather than crap-flooding the country with immigrants such that large populations of immigrants have created ghettos and known no-travel zones, and basically putting the native population in a position of being guests in their own country?

After decades of having the government turn a deaf ear to their concerns, are you really surprised that people are finally using the only political tool available to them?

I don't know how much farther this will go, but I suspect we haven't heard the last of such parties, and whatever happens next isn't likely to be pretty.

But let's remember who set the stage for it, mmkay?

[Universe Prince]

This is fascinating, and slightly frightening. I'm watching people who denounce so-called "Islamofascism" say that the rise of actual fascism in Italy and the U.K. is not only nothing to worry about but a perfectly understandable response to supposedly uncontrolled immigration.

[Xavier_Onassis]

So it took the Democratic party more time to recover from their infamous trechery than it took the Facists?

=========================================
What infamous treachery?

[Plane]

So it took the Democratic party more time to recover from their infamous treachery than it took the Fascists?

=========================================
What infamous treachery?

From some points of view Secession and firing on Union soldiers at Ft. Sumter was not treacherous at all , they were often saying that "the union kept the flag but we kept the Constitution".

But the side that won was the side that defined the rebellion as treachery , and it is the winner that makes that call.

[Plane]

This is fascinating, and slightly frightening. I'm watching people who denounce so-called "Islamofascism" say that the rise of actual fascism in Italy and the U.K. is not only nothing to worry about but a perfectly understandable response to supposedly uncontrolled immigration.

Did you forget your own qualifier?

you don't care about fascists so long as they're not terrorists?

The election of the fascist candidate means that there is a public support for the party , how would you quash it?
As long as they are not violent we don't need to get violent either .

Back when they were violent , my father shot at Italian ,French and German sailors and airmen hoping to quash Fascism probably killed a couple of dozen , but till he needed to he wasn't interested .

[Plane]

And that is my exact point.

It has nothing to do with Fascism, itself. Just as the infatuation with Israel has nothing to do with the Jewish people and the horrors of the Holocaust.

For the American right wing Israel is merely a means to an end as are the Jewish inhabitants. The same is true of Fascism. When you get down to the heart of it, Fascism is admired by the right. Or to be more fair, by a segment (though a large segment) of the right wing. BNP rhetoric and statements have crept into this very forum, used as ammunition against illegal immigration.

Both Judaism and Fascism are simply tools, a means to an end.

"The same is true of Fascism. When you get down to the heart of it, Fascism is admired by the right."

You do not know much about the Right.

[Universe Prince]

Did you forget your own qualifier?

No, I did not. And it wasn't a qualifier. It was a question. A question indicating incredulity.

The election of the fascist candidate means that there is a public support for the party , how would you quash it?
As long as they are not violent we don't need to get violent either .

I don't recall demanding anyone become violent. But I am noticing not just a distinct lack of criticism of the fascism in Italy and the U.K. but an actual defense of it. I'm watching people defend fascism as a perfectly understandable response to supposedly uncontrolled immigration. That this troubles me does not mean I expect people to call for the bombing of Italy or the U.K. It means I find the defense of fascism to be troubling. I'm surprised that you do not.

[Maccus Germanis]

This is fascinating, and slightly frightening. I'm watching people who denounce so-called "Islamofascism" say that the rise of actual fascism in Italy and the U.K. is not only nothing to worry about but a perfectly understandable response to supposedly uncontrolled immigration.

I for one am not saying that fascism is "nothing to worry about." I am saying that it is "perfectly understandable." The weak response of liberal democracies to one form of fascism has bred another fascist response. Shall those concerned try to cut under and take the wind from the sails of facists, or continue to calm themselves with fantasies about "tiny minorities of extemists?"

[Plane]

Did you forget your own qualifier?

No, I did not. And it wasn't a qualifier. It was a question. A question indicating incredulity.

The election of the fascist candidate means that there is a public support for the party , how would you quash it?
As long as they are not violent we don't need to get violent either .

I don't recall demanding anyone become violent. But I am noticing not just a distinct lack of criticism of the fascism in Italy and the U.K. but an actual defense of it. I'm watching people defend fascism as a perfectly understandable response to supposedly uncontrolled immigration. That this troubles me does not mean I expect people to call for the bombing of Italy or the U.K. It means I find the defense of fascism to be troubling. I'm surprised that you do not.

I am not defending fascism , so don't be facile.
I am defending a peacefull persons right to be wrong.
I don't like Fascism any better than I like Islam , but in any person or group that is not motivated to violence , theft or harm ,I do not feel I have the right to enforce correction on their attitude.
Irregardless their thinking , their being peacefull counts.

[Maccus Germanis]

Islam predates Fascism by twelve centuries or so.

True. Unless you wish to argue that froms of fascism did exist which were not then known as facist.
http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html

 

The Koran is largely written in gibberish, which I am guessing is at least as unintelligible to most modern Muslims as the KJV of the Bible is to most Christians.

Indeed Geber did likely write also in Arabic, though probably not the same classical form, but nevertheless perfectly readable translations are available to the curious infidel.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/

Mohammad was a violent pedophile, but then again he lived in times that were even more violent than he was, and at least as pedophilic.

Have you the long sought after proof of this? If this is true then why did Aisha's father object to mo's advances toward his six year old daughter? It would seem that at least one person present was a more just man than mo'. And do you really want to suggest that mo' was more enlightened than Cyrus? This assumption that you pass along is borne of the islamic doctrine of announcing everything before islam as ignorance. This is why cultural treasures such as the Tomb of Cyrus and the Bamayan Buddhas are given so little respect.

I think you can trace the rise of Wahabbi fanaticism, which is at the core of the Islamic Fundie movement to two things: the failed attempt of the Soviets to take over Afghanistan in the 1970's and the sharp drop in oil prices in the 1980's. The Soviets, triggered by the Shiite revolution in Iran, decided that Afghanistan was a threat to them in their own "stans": Uzbekhistan, Tajikistan, Khirghistan and Azerbaijan. There are a lot of Azeris in Iran, and the Tajiks are poor cousins to the Persians.

Or when jihadist quote Sayyid Qutb (1909-1966) and Sayyid Jamāl-al-dīn al-Afghānī (1838-1897) then you may get the wild idea that jihadism did predate the events listed.

[Universe Prince]

I am not defending fascism

I didn't say you were.

so don't be facile.

Physician, heal thyself.

I am defending a peacefull persons right to be wrong.

I'm not denouncing a peaceful person's right to be wrong, ahem, so don't be facile.

I don't like Fascism any better than I like Islam , but in any person or group that is not motivated to violence , theft or harm ,I do not feel I have the right to enforce correction on their attitude.
Irregardless their thinking , their being peacefull counts.

Their being put into public office also counts.

I'm not arguing that people don't have a right to be wrong. Of course they do. I am, however, arguing that watching people, not you but some people, defend the wrong of fascism is troubling.

[Plane]

I don't like Fascism any better than I like Islam , but in any person or group that is not motivated to violence , theft or harm ,I do not feel I have the right to enforce correction on their attitude.
Irregardless their thinking , their being peacefull counts.

Their being put into public office also counts.

I'm not arguing that people don't have a right to be wrong. Of course they do. I am, however, arguing that watching people, not you but some people, defend the wrong of fascism is troubling.

Elected people have an equal right to be wrong as the unelected , and a group has no less right to be wrong than an individual.
There are alternatives to majority rule , but  they are no more likely to be intelligent.