For Love of Judaism

[Plane]

Fascist and racist are probably two of the most overused pejoratives in the English language today.

I'm sure they are. I generally try to refrain from using them for that reason. That doesn't mean there is not a rise of fascism in Europe.

Have we reache a consensus then that there is a rise in Facism , and that it has been driven by a rise un ethnic troubbles , most specificly a public unease with the rise of Islam?

[Universe Prince]

Tha certainly makes it understandable, Was Theo Van Gough a fasist?

I don't know anything about his politics.

[Universe Prince]

Have we reache a consensus then that there is a rise in Facism , and that it has been driven by a rise un ethnic troubbles , most specificly a public unease with the rise of Islam?

If I were being highly diplomatic (not that usually am) I might put it that way, but in fact I'm not sure that we have reached any sort of consensus at all.

[Religious Dick]

Have we reache a consensus then that there is a rise in Facism , and that it has been driven by a rise un ethnic troubbles , most specificly a public unease with the rise of Islam?

If I were being highly diplomatic (not that usually am) I might put it that way, but in fact I'm not sure that we have reached any sort of consensus at all.

It might be nice to arrive on a consensus on what "fascism" is. This thread began with a complaint about the BNP having won some seats in the recent British elections. While the BNP is certainly a nationalist and nativist party, I take a skeptical view that nationalism and nativism in themselves amount to fascism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party

[Universe Prince]

It might be nice to arrive on a consensus on what "fascism" is. This thread began with a complaint about the BNP having won some seats in the recent British elections. While the BNP is certainly a nationalist and nativist party, I take a skeptical view that nationalism and nativism in themselves amount to fascism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party

So is this accurate:

The British National Party (BNP) is a whites only far-right political party in the United Kingdom. It has around 100 councillors in local government in England and holds a seat on the London Assembly, but is not represented in the Parliament of the United Kingdom. In the 2005 UK general election, the BNP received 0.7% of the popular vote, finishing eighth overall and in the Welsh Assembly Election 2007 they came fifth in terms of votes for the regional lists, though failing to win any seats. According to its constitution, the BNP is "committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948." The BNP proposes "firm but voluntary incentives for immigrants and their descendants to return home." It advocates the repeal of all anti-discrimination legislation, and restricts party membership to "indigenous British ethnic groups deriving from the class of ?Indigenous Caucasian?". The BNP also accepts white immigrants that are assimilated into one of those ethnicities. The BNP asserts that there are biological racial differences that determine the behaviour and character of individuals of different races. The party claims that preference for one's own ethnicity is a part of human nature. Historically, under John Tyndall's leadership, the BNP was overtly anti-Semitic; however, under the leadership of Nick Griffin, the BNP has focused on Muslims. The party has said that they do not consider the Jewish, Hindu or Sikh religions to have a significantly detrimental or threatening effect, although the BNP doesn't accept practicing Sikhs, Jews and Hindus as culturally or ethnically British although they do have members with Jewish ancestry. The BNP has been known to work with extremist Hindu and Sikh groups opposing Islam and has actively tried to win Jewish votes by supporting Israel.

[_JS]

Fascist and racist are probably two of the most overused pejoratives in the English language today.

In fairness Bt, the Fascists of which I spoke in the original post are self-identified fascists. I was very careful to point that out. In fact, that's one of my points. The same people who use "Islamofascism" to defame Islam have no real interest in fighting actual Fascism at all.

[_JS]

This is fascinating, and slightly frightening. I'm watching people who denounce so-called "Islamofascism" say that the rise of actual fascism in Italy and the U.K. is not only nothing to worry about but a perfectly understandable response to supposedly uncontrolled immigration.

I think my point was well proven.

[_JS]

"The same is true of Fascism. When you get down to the heart of it, Fascism is admired by the right."

You do not know much about the Right.

Sure it is. I see many aspects of fascism popularized by the right wing in the United States.

[Religious Dick]

It might be nice to arrive on a consensus on what "fascism" is. This thread began with a complaint about the BNP having won some seats in the recent British elections. While the BNP is certainly a nationalist and nativist party, I take a skeptical view that nationalism and nativism in themselves amount to fascism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party

So is this accurate:

The British National Party (BNP) is a whites only far-right political party in the United Kingdom. It has around 100 councillors in local government in England and holds a seat on the London Assembly, but is not represented in the Parliament of the United Kingdom. In the 2005 UK general election, the BNP received 0.7% of the popular vote, finishing eighth overall and in the Welsh Assembly Election 2007 they came fifth in terms of votes for the regional lists, though failing to win any seats. According to its constitution, the BNP is "committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948." The BNP proposes "firm but voluntary incentives for immigrants and their descendants to return home." It advocates the repeal of all anti-discrimination legislation, and restricts party membership to "indigenous British ethnic groups deriving from the class of ?Indigenous Caucasian?". The BNP also accepts white immigrants that are assimilated into one of those ethnicities. The BNP asserts that there are biological racial differences that determine the behaviour and character of individuals of different races. The party claims that preference for one's own ethnicity is a part of human nature. Historically, under John Tyndall's leadership, the BNP was overtly anti-Semitic; however, under the leadership of Nick Griffin, the BNP has focused on Muslims. The party has said that they do not consider the Jewish, Hindu or Sikh religions to have a significantly detrimental or threatening effect, although the BNP doesn't accept practicing Sikhs, Jews and Hindus as culturally or ethnically British although they do have members with Jewish ancestry. The BNP has been known to work with extremist Hindu and Sikh groups opposing Islam and has actively tried to win Jewish votes by supporting Israel.

Possibly. But I would note the disclaimer at the top of the article:

The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed.

[_JS]

Read a biography on Nick Griffin, or documents from the BNP themselves. That should be enough to make a decision. They should have a manifesto posted online, most major UK parties do.

[_JS]

BNP launches election manifesto
   
The British National Party has launched its general election manifesto with a call to abolish multi-culturalism.

Leader Nick Griffin also called for EU withdrawal, the restoration of capital punishment and an end to immigration.

He said British troops should be pulled out of Iraq and used to patrol Dover and the Channel Tunnel to keep out illegal immigrants and asylum seekers.

And he pledged to introduce "firm but voluntary incentives for immigrants and their descendants to return home".

Assault rifle

He said the main issue at this election was for the British to regain control of their own country.

Mr Griffin also wants the reintroduction of national service and said everyone who had undergone it should be required to keep a modern assault rifle at home.

"It's there to shoot burglars with if they want, it's there to shoot people who invade this country if they want, and if in the end a tyrannical government wants to usurp the rights and freedoms of the people it is there to use against the government as well," he said.

He added that this would disprove the "smear" that his party was totalitarian.

The BNP is fielding more than 100 candidates in this election - four times as many as it did in the last general election.

BNP 2005 Manifesto

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4476279.stm

[Religious Dick]

This is fascinating, and slightly frightening. I'm watching people who denounce so-called "Islamofascism" say that the rise of actual fascism in Italy and the U.K. is not only nothing to worry about but a perfectly understandable response to supposedly uncontrolled immigration.

To the best of my knowledge, the most anyone said was that the reaction was no surprise. In fact, anyone who wasn't blind with sunglasses on should have seen this coming for decades.

So which part of this do you find troubling - that anybody with any common sense wasn't surprised by a perfectly predictable outcome, or that you were?

Exactly, what other outcome were you expecting?

[Religious Dick]

BNP launches election manifesto
   
The British National Party has launched its general election manifesto with a call to abolish multi-culturalism.

Leader Nick Griffin also called for EU withdrawal, the restoration of capital punishment and an end to immigration.

He said British troops should be pulled out of Iraq and used to patrol Dover and the Channel Tunnel to keep out illegal immigrants and asylum seekers.

And he pledged to introduce "firm but voluntary incentives for immigrants and their descendants to return home".

Assault rifle

He said the main issue at this election was for the British to regain control of their own country.

Mr Griffin also wants the reintroduction of national service and said everyone who had undergone it should be required to keep a modern assault rifle at home.

"It's there to shoot burglars with if they want, it's there to shoot people who invade this country if they want, and if in the end a tyrannical government wants to usurp the rights and freedoms of the people it is there to use against the government as well," he said.

He added that this would disprove the "smear" that his party was totalitarian.

The BNP is fielding more than 100 candidates in this election - four times as many as it did in the last general election.

BNP 2005 Manifesto

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4476279.stm

I'm still waiting for a definition of "fascism". Are you calling an opposition to immigration and multi-culturalism intrinsically fascist?

As he pointed out, the incentives they're advocating are voluntary. Taking them at their word, I'd have to say I don't quite smell the whiff of the gas chambers yet...

[Plane]

"The same is true of Fascism. When you get down to the heart of it, Fascism is admired by the right."

You do not know much about the Right.

Sure it is. I see many aspects of fascism popularized by the right wing in the United States.

I wonder how you see this marage.
 You do not know much about the right,
so I will give you a clue,
 you will never learn much about the right from the Huffington post.

[_JS]

Gas chambers aren't intrinsically fascist either. I find that point rather bizarre.

I have no need to define fascism for this discussion because the BNP and the Italian fascists are self-identified. Nick Griffin was a member of the National Front which beget the BNP.

Giovanni Alemanno was a leader of a neo-fascist youth movement, has fascist supporters salute him with a straight arm salute (sig heil!), and is even called "Il Duce." He began a faction of his party called the "Social Right" well known for their fascist beliefs.

In other words, I'm not the one making the judgment. These folks are fascists by their own standards. You may argue with them about the merits of their fascism if you like, but that's purposefully not my game here.

I've simply pointed out two very blatant hypocrisies of the right-wing in the states.