Behavior modifacation vs racism

[Universe Prince]

The question was not whether the KKK considered themselves Christian. The question was "are you now saying members of the KKK are not and cannot be Christians?" Is this not a straightforward question?

no

My apologies then. I thought it was.

What ever brought to your mind that I might deny the Christian Status of the KKK ?

Emphasis added: "The KKK's claims of Christianity worked for them for decades , finally falling when they seemed rediculous."

Haveing Assumed myself that you knew that all Muslims were people , I have wasteed a lot of time on this very trivial point.

Sigh. You have missed the point completely. But the surprising part is that you're still talking about something you insist is trivial.

[Rich]

Don't worry, you don't belong.

Obviously.

[Plane]

Sigh. You have missed the point completely. But the surprising part is that you're still talking about something you insist is trivial.

You can't make your point and I can't make mine .

That happens sometimes .


I do feel frustrated , but I have been reading your posts for a long time and your thoughts have become important to me , I realise I could have just stopped a while ago yet I am still eager to communicate .

Oh well eventually even I must give up on a blockage in logic that is too stubborn to budge , I feel almost there.

But to the KKK Christianity played a role , I don't want to call them good Christians , because my idea of a good Christian is diffrent than that.

But the Christianity of the KKK was important to their operation , important to their propaganda and recruiting , enabling to their remaining in power in the midst of a Christian community which should have raised more objection to them than it did.

After a while Many ordinary Christians of the mainstream began to object to the KKK in terms much like those Rich brings up .

The Islam of the Al Queda is very usefull to the Al Queda , is there any potential for the objection to them identifying themselves as very good Muslims and pious to become rediculous to the mainstream Muslim?

[Plane]

Then you know it is true that Racism is a complicated thing.

No, it really is not. People are complicated. Racism is simple. Again, "the category you place this creature in holds more importance to you than the individual creature." Don't confuse the individual with the category.

I began the thread with an article that included this

Using a variety of sophisticated methods, psychologists have established that people unwittingly hold an astounding assortment of stereotypical beliefs and attitudes about social groups: black and white, female and male, elderly and young, gay and straight, fat and thin. Although these implicit biases inhabit us all, we vary in the particulars, depending on our own group membership, our conscious desire to avoid bias and the contours of our everyday environments. For instance, about two thirds of whites have an implicit preference for whites over blacks, whereas blacks show no average preference for one race over the other.....

Racism is inborn and learned both , it is discouraged and reinforced alternately throughout our lives , for those who fight it in social organization and for those who fight it within themselves it is a long process of examination or self examination . For those who gain advantage by it ,it is a struggle to realize in the first place that there is anything wrong in harboring some of it after all everyone is a little and everyone knows someone worse.

It isn't easy to avoid the assumptions that other people apply to you , and isn't easy to avoid assuming that they will apply such assumptions .

Even the beneficent can harbor assumptions and expectations that amount to racism , perhaps often with no realisationthat they are doing anything wrong at all.

It becomes a multi dimentional matrix of degrees , a gordian knot impossible to disentangle .

Tho the problem can reach enourmous complexity the best solution is kindness simply given , cutting through generations of tangled fantasy and bitter experiences , a kindness offered without expectation of return cuts through .

[Rich]

>>Racism is inborn and learned both...<<

I disagree. What evidence do you have that racism is inborn?

[Plane]

>>Racism is inborn and learned both...<<

I disagree. What evidence do you have that racism is inborn?

researchers are probing deeper. They want to know: Where exactly do such biases come from? How much do they influence our outward behavior?

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=buried-prejudice-the-bigot-in-your-brain


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The Human brain spends a lot of time relateing things together , we get racism from the same place we get "hunches".

The reinforcement of a correct assumption is stronger than the correction of an incorrect one, we start with a bias twards accepting bias.

Piled on top of this comes a lifetime of learning , some of which is learning falsehoods , human nature doesn't clear the wrong out easily , that is one of the reasons that racist attitudes are pretty sticky.

[Universe Prince]

The Islam of the Al Queda is very usefull to the Al Queda , is there any potential for the objection to them identifying themselves as very good Muslims and pious to become rediculous to the mainstream Muslim?

Of course there is. But we're not going to get there by ignoring the moderate Muslims or via military action.

[Universe Prince]

I began the thread with an article that included this

Using a variety of sophisticated methods, psychologists have established that people unwittingly hold an astounding assortment of stereotypical beliefs and attitudes about social groups: black and white, female and male, elderly and young, gay and straight, fat and thin. Although these implicit biases inhabit us all, we vary in the particulars, depending on our own group membership, our conscious desire to avoid bias and the contours of our everyday environments. For instance, about two thirds of whites have an implicit preference for whites over blacks, whereas blacks show no average preference for one race over the other.....

That people hold stereotypical beliefs does not mean racism is inborn.

It isn't easy to avoid the assumptions that other people apply to you , and isn't easy to avoid assuming that they will apply such assumptions .

I'm not sure why one would try to avoid this. This would be like avoiding the weather.

Even the beneficent can harbor assumptions and expectations that amount to racism , perhaps often with no realisationthat they are doing anything wrong at all.

It becomes a multi dimentional matrix of degrees , a gordian knot impossible to disentangle .

I don't see why. I get your first point there, but the Gordian Knot bit, no, I don't buy it. Yes, some people may not realize some belief or attitude they hold is racist, but that is hardly a complex matter.

[Plane]

I don't see why. I get your first point there, but the Gordian Knot bit, no, I don't buy it. Yes, some people may not realize some belief or attitude they hold is racist, but that is hardly a complex matter.

It is complex enough to discuss at length.

This thread begins with two very interesting Sciam articles about the behavior of the human brain , racism is caused by many components , some learned and some innate.

You can't teach racism to a creature unequipped for it , there is a minimum level of complexity required.

[Rich]

I'm still not buying it. Fear of something different doesn't equate to inbreed racism.

But I'll continue to read.

[_JS]

The question was not whether the KKK considered themselves Christian. The question was "are you now saying members of the KKK are not and cannot be Christians?" Is this not a straightforward question?

no


My apologies then. I thought it was.

That seems like a rather simple and straightforward question to me.

[Universe Prince]

This thread begins with two very interesting Sciam articles about the behavior of the human brain , racism is caused by many components , some learned and some innate.

Racism is not caused by innate workings of the human brain. People are taught ideas that make use of things like implicit associations, that doesn't mean implicit associations are innately racist.

[Plane]

The Islam of the Al Queda is very usefull to the Al Queda , is there any potential for the objection to them identifying themselves as very good Muslims and pious to become rediculous to the mainstream Muslim?

Of course there is. But we're not going to get there by ignoring the moderate Muslims or via military action.

Why do you say "Of course there is."?

What is there to make it likely or possible?

[Plane]

I don't think Jesus would admire a KKK member much either, but I am pretty sure that whatever few members the KKK has left mostly regard themselves as Christians.

Jesus had very little to say about racism. In his day, there were Jews, Samaritans, Romans and no doubt a number of others, but if skin color differed, there is no mention of it in the NT at all. Mostly, Jesus hung out with other Jews. There were no Roman or Samaritan apostles so far as we know.

I am happy to let Christians and everyone else decide who belongs and does not belong in whatever group.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:27-29 
Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
Colossians 3:10-12


Acts 8 (New International Version)

Philip and the Ethiopian
 26Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Go south to the road?the desert road?that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." 27So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian[d]eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the book of Isaiah the prophet. 29The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
 30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.

 31"How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

 32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:
   "He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
      and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,
      so he did not open his mouth.
 33In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
      Who can speak of his descendants?
      For his life was taken from the earth."[e]

 34The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?" 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

 36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"[f] 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.

[Plane]

This thread begins with two very interesting Sciam articles about the behavior of the human brain , racism is caused by many components , some learned and some innate.

Racism is not caused by innate workings of the human brain. People are taught ideas that make use of things like implicit associations, that doesn't mean implicit associations are innately racist.

Didn't you accept this as a good succinct definition of racism?

" the category you place this creature in holds more importance to you than the individual creature."

These implicit associations are half of the picture , they are the part that allows one to place the catagory above the individual. Placeing the individual above the catagory is a learned behavior , placeing things and people in large catagorys is more primitive , it is innate.

There are several other parts , such as our social nature , we love to form groups , a bear could never be racist because they are solitary there are no bear heards , no exclusive bear clubs. To a bear there is little point in makeing freinds, so they are missing a critical portion of the equipment needed to become racist .