Author Topic: Whooo Hooooo000!  (Read 3134 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Whooo Hooooo000!
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2008, 12:51:18 PM »
I am not any sort of Biblical fundamentalist. I accept that Hebrews wrote the Bible according to their own observations and interests, and that as you say, some of it is myth probably passed down from oral tradition over a long period of time, and other parts document historical occurrences, seen by one or perhaps more than one individual. I fail to see how anyone can simultaneously believe that the Bible is entirely true with no allegory, symbolism or metaphor because much of it is stated by the text to be this. Was there a real Good Samaritan? Was the bit about the oil for the lamps and the virgins an actual occurrence? Or were these stories told to illustrate a point, as Buddha told?

I just don't consider the Bible to be more than a book written by people who felt they were godly.

If the actual mission of Jesus was to bring the word of God to Mankind, then it stands to reason that there should be a Book of Jesus, written by Jesus. After all, he was a rabbi of a religion that by the time he came along, revered the written word over the spoken word.

But there isn't. I am not sure what to make of this. I am thinking that the Coca-Cola company has been more successful at spreading the  values (such as they are) of their expensive sugar water in the past 130 years or so than the followers of Jesus have been at spreading the word of Jesus, since more people recognize the name and symbol of Coca-Cola than those of Jesus. If Jesus were perfect, one would expect better results: nothing can beat perfection, can it? Does this mean that Jesus was less than perfect at his strategy of proselitizing that the Coca Cola Co.? Or does it simply indicate that (a) Jesus was not perfect, ot (b) not capable of a perfect advertising campaign?
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Perhaps there are two Jesuses (is the Latin plural 'Jesi'?) the real one, and the one that appears in the New Testament, written a good generation or four after  the assumed date of the real Jesus, and a crucial period in history during the course of which there were two expulsions of the Romans by the Jews, one that ended in the Fall of Masada in 75 CE and another by Shimon Bar Kochba, who claimed to be a Messiah, that ended in 135. It was after the latter (with its obvious message that Bar Kochba, the military messiah, was unsuccessful, while the Yeshua ben Yacob (ie Jesus) movement was perhaps successful, since Jewish Christians stayed out of that rebellion and were not dispersed as were the Jewish rebels. These days, maybe the descendants of these same people are known as "Arab Christians" to the Zionists, who dislike the term Palestinians.
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Oh dear, many years ago, I taught in Washington State with a large bossy woman named June Rawlings. It seems that she has been confused in my mind with J.K. Rowling. So you are right about that, sorry. Someday, perhaps I will read her books, I imagine. At the moment, I am quite fond of Annie Proulx, who writes books that have little to do with magic of the Harry Potter sort. I read the Tolkein books way back when, all of them during a break between the end of the HS academic years and the beginning of summer school at Cheney State. I had three Herb Alpert records on the stereo and played them continuously. Even today, I hear Herb's trumpet in an elevator, and I cannot help but conjure up Legolas and Gandalf.

If the Bible does not say that pi=3, what DOES it say about pi? I do not recall it says 3.1459... I think it simply can be interpreted to mean that Jews, not being at that moment, really good with circular objects, had to call in outside help, and were less than effective eavesdroppers when they listened in on their Gentile architects.
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What it says is that the writers of the Bible were not interested in mathematical precision.  They didn't need to be.  Few normal people obsess over the subject.  I never hear a football announcer say "that play netted 7.68934 yards."

I hardly think that being precise involves being obsessive. I bet that if your young son asks you how much pi is, you will NOT say three. If you say 3.14159 or even 3.14, I hardly think you would consider that obsessive behavior. The word of God should at least approach perfection, simply because it claims to be the word of God.

And also, if you build a building is built on the assumption that pi=3, there is a pretty good chance that it will collapse on you.  I agree that 5 decimals in a football score are of little or no consequence, because sports scores are all of no consequence after a year has passed. A miscount in sports is never fatal, is it?

I am betting that each and every architect that has ever built or ever will build a Mormon temple could tell you the value of pi to a useful decimal point, despite the fact that Mormons are less fond of circular devices (domes and arches) that others, such as Catholics. I am thinking "incompetent patriarchs" when I see this. I agree that it is of little importance, but hey, if you want to be taken seriously, you just have to be serious about matters of common knowledge.

Can you deny that it is impossible for a person to brainwash themselves to believe an untruth? Can you deny that it has been done? After all, there are many, many religions on this planet and most of them depend on faith, do they not?

There are only two possibilities: either one is correct and all the rest are not, or they are all incorrect.

I have heard people say that all religions are the same, but the fact is that any serious study will reveal that they are not, and that even sects of the same religions contradict one another.

But they all rely on faith. So you are saying that your faith in Jesus is a true faith, while Dagdish in Uttar Pradish's belief in Lord Ganesh, in which Dagdish has much faith, is a false faith. Lucky for you to have been born where you were and not in Uttar Pradesh, hunh?

What about poor Dagdish? Does not the same faith that compels you to believe also compel Dagdish to send Mormon and Jehovah's Witnesseses and Muslim proselitizers away from his door?


"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Cynthia

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Re: Whooo Hooooo000!
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2008, 03:05:08 PM »
I had three Herb Alpert records on the stereo and played them continuously.


As a young teen in the days of Herb Albert and his T-Brass, I enjoyed listening to the vinyls play away on my parent's Hi-Fi. Those were festive days, in the hot summertime, while the folks entertained with neighbors and friends.

I remember wishing that I could  be that girl on the cover of the album with all the whipped cream wrapped about her body. I thought that was such a delicious photo. But, of course in those days, I was in awe of the whipped cream and how it must of felt on the body. I had no clue back then that my wish to be drenched in the coolness of the cream was also man's desire for the creamy whip for the girl's hot dessert.

d'oh.

Stray Pooch

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Re: Whooo Hooooo000!
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2008, 07:44:59 PM »
I remember wishing that I could  be that girl on the cover of the album with all the whipped cream wrapped about her body. I thought that was such a delicious photo. But, of course in those days, I was in awe of the whipped cream and how it must of felt on the body. I had no clue back then that my wish to be drenched in the coolness of the cream was also man's desire for the creamy whip for the girl's hot dessert.

This is a side of you I have never seen, Cindy.

I think I need a cold shower . . . :D
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

BT

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Re: Whooo Hooooo000!
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2008, 07:56:15 PM »


The model is Dolores Erickson. She was pregnant at the time of the photo shoot. She was actually covered with shaving cream (whipped cream kept melting under the lights). The LP was released in 1965 and spent 189 weeks on the charts.

http://tralfaz-archives.com/coverart/A/Alpert/herb_alpert.html

Stray Pooch

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Re: Whooo Hooooo000!
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2008, 08:39:25 PM »
I am not any sort of Biblical fundamentalist. I accept that Hebrews wrote the Bible according to their own observations and interests, and that as you say, some of it is myth probably passed down from oral tradition over a long period of time, and other parts document historical occurrences, seen by one or perhaps more than one individual. I fail to see how anyone can simultaneously believe that the Bible is entirely true with no allegory, symbolism or metaphor because much of it is stated by the text to be this. Was there a real Good Samaritan? Was the bit about the oil for the lamps and the virgins an actual occurrence? Or were these stories told to illustrate a point, as Buddha told?

Even fundies, I think, recognize the parables as fictional accounts intended to illustrate a point, but that's because the Bible makes that realitively clear.  I was referring to other areas where there is allegory, metaphor or other figurative speech used.   I do believe, for example, in creation.  I do not believe it happened in 6 earth-days 6000 years ago.  But I DO believe that it happened in phases, much as Genesis describes.  



If the actual mission of Jesus was to bring the word of God to Mankind, then it stands to reason that there should be a Book of Jesus, written by Jesus. After all, he was a rabbi of a religion that by the time he came along, revered the written word over the spoken word.


Funny you should mention that.  I was addressing a similar point today in a class I was teaching.  When Cornelius (In Acts) was visited by an Angel he was told to go to Peter.  When Saul saw Christ on the road to Damascus, he was sent to Ananias.  Christ delegated his authority to men to administer to men.  He could, of course, have written his own gospels, or simply have invented the internet and established a website.  But that was not his intent.  Each of the evangelists was given a mission.  Each of the Apostles had a stewardship.  God intends that people serve other people.  He intervenes only when other people cannot.    Christ had no need to write a book.  His life was the book.  He was the Word.  It was up to men to witness of Him.  


If Jesus were perfect, one would expect better results: nothing can beat perfection, can it? Does this mean that Jesus was less than perfect at his strategy of proselitizing that the Coca Cola Co.? Or does it simply indicate that (a) Jesus was not perfect, ot (b) not capable of a perfect advertising campaign?


How well people choose to accept, teach or interpret Christ is not an indication of His perfection or lack thereof.  It is an indication of human imperfection.  He could, of course, have forced everyone to recognize him.  That would have been exactly how Lucifer planned to "win back" all of us.  Free will is what Christ endorsed.  The ability to choose makes the potential for bad choice, and that is an acceptable (and necessary) risk of the concept.  Coca-cola is not interested in presenting a choice.  They want it all.  They advertise aggressively.  Christ did not choose that method.  They compete in a cut-throat fashion, often signing contracts prohibitting outlets that sell their product from offering a choice.  Christ does not take choice from us.  The analogy is not valid.  They are not just different products, they are different worlds.



Oh dear, many years ago, I taught in Washington State with a large bossy woman named June Rawlings. It seems that she has been confused in my mind with J.K. Rowling. So you are right about that, sorry. Someday, perhaps I will read her books, I imagine. At the moment, I am quite fond of Annie Proulx, who writes books that have little to do with magic of the Harry Potter sort. I read the Tolkein books way back when, all of them during a break between the end of the HS academic years and the beginning of summer school at Cheney State. I had three Herb Alpert records on the stereo and played them continuously. Even today, I hear Herb's trumpet in an elevator, and I cannot help but conjure up Legolas and Gandalf.


I wasn't sharpshooting, I just wasn't sure if June Rawlings was some other important person in the mix.  With all that money floating around there have got to be a lot of hands in the pie - and speaking of pie . . .



I hardly think that being precise involves being obsessive. I bet that if your young son asks you how much pi is, you will NOT say three. If you say 3.14159 or even 3.14, I hardly think you would consider that obsessive behavior. The word of God should at least approach perfection, simply because it claims to be the word of God.


As I understand the argument (I pay little attention to such silliness, but I have heard it told) the size of the baptismal font in the temple (or some such round item) was described in cubits as measuring out so that pi would have to equal exactly three for the thing to be proportionate.  It's a ridiculous argument, because the Bible is not a math book.  The author of the work was stating an estimate - not a precise measurement.  He was trying to give a description of the temple - not a set of blueprints.  I'm sure the builders were far more concerned with precision - and they probably used tools to get it round - than the average layman to whom the story is related.  Like I said, I imagine it is a VERY rare occurance for a running back to get precisely three yards - or for a three-foot putt to be three feet long.  Such arguments, which state that the Bible must be technically perfect in every way to be true, are ridiculous.


And also, if you build a building is built on the assumption that pi=3, there is a pretty good chance that it will collapse on you.  I agree that 5 decimals in a football score are of little or no consequence, because sports scores are all of no consequence after a year has passed. A miscount in sports is never fatal, is it?


But few people, reporting for the local newspaper, are going to quote measurements accurately.  I'll bet, for example, that the 9-11 memorial will not be EXACTLY 1776 feet high.   It might be 1776 ft 3.253 inches high, but that's close enough.  Those three inches are probably critical to the architect and builders, but few people will begrudge the round off in a news report.



Can you deny that it is impossible for a person to brainwash themselves to believe an untruth? Can you deny that it has been done? After all, there are many, many religions on this planet and most of them depend on faith, do they not?


Well, there are far too many negatives in that sentence to be absolutely certain of the meaning, but I think you're asking if I deny the possibility of brainwashing oneself into believing a falsehood.  The short answer to that is, yes, people can convince themselves to believe falsehoods.  But one can just as easily do that with science as with religion.  You have said that nobody can "know" there is a God.  That's just as much the product of "brainwashing" as anything I have seen in religion.  You CAN say that YOU don't know there is a God - you cannot say that I don't.  You can express the opinion, but it is no more than that.  The rest of your reasoning is far too black-and-white.  Every faith has some measure of truth in it.  I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has the fullness of the gospel, but that other faiths have a pretty good chunk of it (some more than others, but all to some extent).  That includes, btw, non-Christian faiths.  I also believe that there are many misinterpretations and confusions in other faiths.  But if a Muslim, a Buddhist, or a Zoroastrian asks for wisdom of God, he can receive it.  God doesn't turn his back on you if you are not part of an exclusive club.  He ministers to all of his children to the extent that they are ready to receive him.   As to matters of doctrine, those are separate from the existence of God.  When poor little Apu turns away the missionaries at his door, he is making a mistake.  But that does not mean his experience with God is false.  It may well be true, he just hasn't received it all yet.  A person can know there is a God, irrespective of his personal religious belief.  Whether or not that knowledge leads to an understanding of the fullness of the gospel in this lifetime, is up to the believer and God.

Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Cynthia

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Re: Whooo Hooooo000!
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2008, 11:28:22 PM »
I remember wishing that I could  be that girl on the cover of the album with all the whipped cream wrapped about her body. I thought that was such a delicious photo. But, of course in those days, I was in awe of the whipped cream and how it must of felt on the body. I had no clue back then that my wish to be drenched in the coolness of the cream was also man's desire for the creamy whip for the girl's hot dessert.

This is a side of you I have never seen, Cindy.

I think I need a cold shower . . . :D

Ah shucks, little girl sometimes grow up wishing they could be Barbie dolls, as did I, (confession time again)....heck, I wanted to be THIS LADY. d'oh.

Had to whip up the board a bit, I suppose. ;)

Back to the business of debating.
C*

Cynthia

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Re: Whooo Hooooo000!
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2008, 11:34:57 PM »


The model is Dolores Erickson. She was pregnant at the time of the photo shoot. She was actually covered with shaving cream (whipped cream kept melting under the lights). The LP was released in 1965 and spent 189 weeks on the charts.

http://tralfaz-archives.com/coverart/A/Alpert/herb_alpert.html

Ah my gosh,  how funny. Hey.....! Thanks for whipping my cool whip dreams to shame! d'oh..

J/K
Cindy

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Whooo Hooooo000!
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2008, 08:23:55 AM »
That was one of the Herb Alpert records I came to associate with the Lord of the Rings. It was really great in its day, but like all catchy tunes, it has entered the realm of Muzak, which is where catchy tunes go to die.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Cynthia

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Re: Whooo Hooooo000!
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2008, 12:36:42 PM »
That was one of the Herb Alpert records I came to associate with the Lord of the Rings. It was really great in its day, but like all catchy tunes, it has entered the realm of Muzak, which is where catchy tunes go to die.

http://www.televisiontunes.com/g-theme-songs.html


Muzak!


http://www.televisiontunes.com/Peter_Gunn.html

However, Henry Mancini's "tunes" will never be Muzak. Peter Gunn, classic...
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 03:59:14 PM by Cynthia »