Lessons of the Holocaust By Jamie Glazov
FrontPageMagazine.com | 5/19/2008
Frontpage interview's guest today is Hilmar von Campe, a world renowned intellectual, speaker, and author. He grew up under the Nazis and was at one time a member of the Hitler Youth. A WWII veteran, he made a sensational escape from a POW camp in Communist Yugoslavia, after which he gave his life to God and dedicated himself to never again be a bystander to injustice and to make restitution for the Nazi atrocities ? which would include his investigation of what made them possible. He has a degree from the Hamburg University and appeared in the 1992 "International Who is Who of Intellectuals" of the International Biographical Center in Cambridge, Britain. He was for many years the Chairman of the Sub-Committee on Foreign Investments in the American/Mexican Chamber of Commerce.
FP: Hilmar von Campe, welcome to Frontpage Interview.
HVC: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain my message and my purpose.
FP: I would like to talk to you today about how the Holocaust was made possible, what impulses thirst for it today within radical Islam, and what the West must do.
But let's first begin with your background. Tell us about your young years and how you ended up in the Hitler Youth.
HVC: My father was a Landrat, the equivalent to an American county commissioner. The difference between the two is that a Landrat was a public servant appointed by the government whereas in the US a commissioner is elected.
After the Nazis came to power on January 30, 1933, they approached my father and asked him to become a member of the Nazi party, the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP). It was a radical left Socialist and not a right Fascist party. My father declined and was nearly immediately dismissed and sent to a remote corner of the country. I was then 7 years old but clearly remember the morning after the day the Nazis took power. On that day our nanny came through our room where we four children were playing lamenting out loud that "this painter has made it after all." The painter she referred to was Hitler.
The Nazi ideology infested our greater family. The conflict was so sharp that we were split into two groups that didn't even talk to each other: the Nazis and the Anti-Nazis. My parents detested the Nazis and saw through the way these pinheaded people with no education tried to impose their arrogant views on everybody. The Nazis in our extended family were led by my uncle Hans, my mother's brother, a colonel in the German army, and my uncle Adolf, my mother's brother-in-law who became a highly decorated General. I do not think they committed any crimes but they did fit the description of what makes a person a Nazi. A Nazi is somebody who accepts the Nazi ideology and Hitler's opinions as his own set of values and acts accordingly. My uncles went to war for their ideology, for revenge of the Versailles Peace Treaty at the end of WWI, and to pursue world conquest. I went to war to defend my fatherland which I thought was being attacked by France and Britain.
The Hitler Youth was the only youth organization in existence. Hitler had liquidated all others. By law, all boys at the age of 10 years had to join. My parents had to send their children if they wanted to stay alive and keep control over them. We children of course had no idea of what was going on. For us the Hitler Youth represented mostly a good time playing with other youth.
All parents had no choice including the parents of Joseph Ratzinger, today Pope Benedict XVI. His father was police officer and opposed to the Nazi doctrine which he considered to be hostile to Catholic faith. The boy obviously thought the same and refused to participate in meetings. How his parents managed to have him enter only with 14 years I don't know.
During his visit to the United States in April 2008, the Pope for the first time referred to his growing up under the Nazis. "My own years as an teenager were marred by a sinister regime that thought it had all the answers", he said. He spoke of the "monster" of the Natiional Socialist regime. He told his audience at the St. Joseph's Seminary in Yonkers in New York that "many of your grand- and great-grand parents will have recounted the horror of the destruction that ensued. Indeed, some of them came to America precisely to escape such terror." I consider the Pope's visit to be a tremendous success. He won the hearts of the people
FP: Illuminate the system of political indoctrination.
HVC: The system of political indoctrination was simple enough ? the Nazis controlled the existing media. Back then there were only newspapers, radio stations and the film industry. We received Nazi brainwashing in the form of news and films with distorted facts or with patriotic themes. In school and in the Hitler Youth the focus was on national greatness, the injustice of the Versailles Peace Treaty, and the magnificent leadership of "the Fuehrer" who was able to rectify what everybody, Nazi or not Nazi alike, felt was wrong.
When I was interviewed for 4 hours by the Holocaust Documentation & Education Center in Miami, Florida, the interviewer asked me several times about the indoctrination sessions we received in the army. It took her quite some time to understand that there was no indoctrination in the armed forces. Hitler had the top generals under control and we did what we were ordered to do believing that this was the best we could do for our fatherland. Had the Nazis attempted ideology sessions, they would have lost the voluntary passion of a great part of soldiers and quite a number of generals would have had second thoughts and get involved with the military resistance which always existed. Hitler used the German army for his purposes.
Joseph Goebbels, the minister for propaganda, called the chief liar, was quoted to have said, 'you need no more than 10,000 men to control a nation like Germany. You just take over the switchboards of power and everybody will follow your orders.' What I just described is the perfect example how it works.
FP: Why the Holocaust? And why the silence of the German people, including the churches?
HVC: In How was it Possible, and even more so in the second edition of it with the new title Defeating the totalitarian Lie - A former Hitler Youth warns America, I deal with the issue of how these atrocities could happen. The political parties, the government, and the German people had no purpose bigger than the Nazi purposes. And they had no absolute moral standards as guidelines for behavior. Too many people were mainly interested in self. One of the main causes was the Versailles Peace Treaty which we called "dictation" which had destroyed our honor, our political structures and our economy. Until this day I don't understand how people managed to survive in Germany with an inflation of such unheard dimensions. My mother would take my dad's salary (paid daily in piles of cash), put it inside a suit case and run into town to see what she could buy with it. Many people thought that Hitler would change their misery.
The first book I wrote was in Germany with the title Cowardice and Appeasement. I pointed out that Hitler and the Nazis could only act the way they did because we were a nation of bystanders who made it possible. And I was one of them. Only a very small number of people knew about the Holocaust, but everybody knew about the cruel discrimination of the Jews which started right after Hitler became the head of government. There was no outcry, neither by the churches, nor by the people. However, not everybody was afraid to stand up to the Gestapo and some did speak out, fight and even die in a concentration camp.
I still remember the two Gestapo agents in front of our church on Sunday morning who would take down the names of those who came. Everybody knew what intimidation was and what the consequences of protest would be. My parents did not budge and did not look at the agents when they entered the church. Hitler was determined to end Christianity once the war was won. The Nazis knew that people who have a higher authority than government cannot be manipulated that easily as people without faith. They were out to separate God and people. "You can pray and sing hymns in your churches or at home," we were told by the Nazis, "but in society Christians have no say, we determine the rules." In the United States the ACLU says that they fight for the separation of church and state, but what they really mean is the separation of God and the American people. In the 21" century they are the carrier of the Nazi ideology.
FP: Tell us how you ended up as a prisoner of war of the Communist Tito government in Yugoslavia and then how you managed your sensational escape.
HVC: I was the gunner in a tank in Yugoslavia during the last year of the war in a unit which had the task to support the infantry in assault operations. We fought against the Soviet army. At the end of the war in May 1945, when all German military capitulated by order of the high command we were taken prisoners by the Communist partisan forces of Tito. After a 10 day long "death march" we landed in a POW camp. For the first time since I entered the war did I think that the likelihood of death was real.
When autumn came, the weather turned cold and food was horrible and scarce. We also didn't have any warm clothes. I didn't think I would survive the winter. Five of us decided to escape and try to reach Germany via Hungary and Austria. We were in a working camp building houses with one guard. When one evening this guard went to see his girlfriend in a neighboring village we left the camp and were on our way. We walked with about 100 yards distance from each other and I was the second in the line. Already in this night we ran into a patrol and lost our comrade in front who also had the map. It was the first miracle that in this black night the remaining four of us found each other in a field and decided to go on and take the North Star as a guide. We made the decision to press on at night using the North Star as our guide. We had to walk in the north-eastern direction.
It is a long story ? let me just tell you the events which I consider as miracles:
- The first two you know already
- We walked at night and hid in the morning and ate turnips we managed to dig out of the fields.One night we only found some bushes at the side of a road. Shortly afterwards a man with a dog passed by us. The dog pulled the man to our bushes. I looked into his eyes, he into mine. He didn't say a word, left and did not return with soldiers. Since we wore our uniforms he knew who we were. He obviously was no communist otherwise he would have given us away.
- The border to Hungary was marked by a river. We had to cross it. When we reached it we found at the very spot a boat under water. We lifted it up and crossed the river.
- However it was not the main river, just an arm. Two days later we hit the real river. Again there was a boat, this time fastened to a tree. We got it loose and crossed the river.
Crossing the river brought us into Soviet-occupied Hungary. There were scarcely any men around, they were either prisoners of war or dead. The Hungarians were our friends and gave us real food. We split in two and two and continued to walk at night. In the morning we would approach a farm. People always helped us.
- One morning we got late into a farm and somebody saw us. A Soviet patrol with a dog came after us. We fled but our footprints in the field would easily lead to us. We hid behind some trees and I watched the soldiers as they picked up my cap. I thought that this is now the end of our escape. But then instead of following our footsteps to where we were the patrol went into the opposite direction. After this we changed our uniforms into normal clothing, the two of us split and I was on my own.
- The decisive border between death or slavery and freedom was in Austria, the demarcation line between the Soviet and the British occupation zones. I had to cross a bridge early in the morning before a guard was put there. As I approached the bridge by foot that morning, I ran into an armed Soviet soldier. Although I made a minor diversionary move, for whatever reason the soldier took no notice of me and I ended up being able to cross the bridge.
There was more, and it is in my book .When I realized that I had achieved what I set out to do I began to think about all of these miracles. I began to wonder whether God had cleared the path for me to freedom. I had not thought about God in battle and never felt that I might not get alive out of the war. But now I thought of Him. My second thought was that if it was God who did it then he must have a purpose for me. That He had such a purpose I discovered five years later and it is another story. I gave my life to God and I promised Him to never again be a bystander but make restitution for the atrocities of a German government by standing up and fighting for His truth. My books are about this theme.
FP: Describe your work after the 1950s in terms of apologizing for the sufferings Germany had inflicted on the Jewish people.
HVC: During the fifties, some friends and I traveled throughout our Western neighboring countries apologizing for the harm Germany had inflicted on them. I was received twice by the managing director of the Holocaust Memorial Center in Washington, Rabbi Dr. David Weinstein. A friend in the German Bundestag (Parliament) had made the arrangements. I apologized to him about my own cowardice and immorality, which helped to make the Nazi regime possible and asked him to forgive me and Germany. I told him that my life will be restitution for my own and my nation's sins. We both were close to tears and he wanted to be my friend. I was twice in Israel to apologize and make friends. Here in the United States I have spoken to many Jewish groups and Holocaust survivors are my friends.
In my Holocaust statement which was inspired by my encounter with Rabbi Weinstein and which is in full is in the book it says:
If the suffering of millions of people is to have a meaning, it can only be the lesson that out of guilt and suffering, a spirit of forgiveness, reconciliation, and common destiny can arise, leading in turn to the birth of a new human society where humanity obeys the laws of its creator? My restitution for the atrocities committed by a German government in the name of Germany is the commitment of my life to fight the spirit of evil in whatever form it appears so that the truth of God can be established who commands us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.
FP: Can you talk a bit about the role of lies in society?
HVC: In August of 1996 a study at the University of Virginia concluded that everyone lies at least once a day. We are lying to each other and we are being lied to by our government establishment day-in, day-out. I am convinced that the reason for all our human problems are lies at the root of them. The Nazi state was built on lies: there is no God, not all people have a value, the value is determined by the government which has also the right to kill those who according to them have none. Liars in government are the worst enemies a free society can have.
Any human relationship has to be based on truth otherwise it won't last. A society where you can't trust each other must end with somebody or some group which takes power with lies and governs by forcing the rest to accept their views. Freedom is lost. Every lie harms somebody. Individual lies form a system of lies when taken as a whole and can influence the direction of a nation. The next phase if lies broaden their influence and become a basis for basic policy decisions, for legislation and law enforcement they can dominate a society. If this continues, the next and final phase leads to a society where lies rule ? a godless and totalitarian rule.
However, the answer to the lie is truth. Everybody can decide to stop lying and fight for truth as I did.
FP: A German Jewish leader recently stated he supported 'Mein Kampf' being republished with an accompanying commentary. What are your views on that?
HVC: I don't think that that is a good idea. It is like asking an atheist to provide the Sunday morning sermon in a Christian church. An unrepentant mass murderer should not be handed even after his suicide a national audience for his rotten ideas. You never know what effect it has on readers. A commentary does not necessarily convince everybody. The book should be allowed, however, in universities in the history and social science faculties and perhaps in a limited way in libraries.
FP: A few weeks ago the Simon Wiesenthal Center's released its list of 10 most wanted Nazis. Your thoughts?
HVC: I have seen that list. All ten have blood on their hands and have escaped justice until now. The efforts of the Simon Wiesenthal Center must be supported.
FP: Israel's Holocaust Memorial just opened a photo archive on the internet. The significance in your eyes?
HVC: I have been at the Holocaust Memorial Yad Vashem in Israel. It is very moving. The web site with 130,000 photos which was just opened will remind humanity of the atrocities man is capable to commit. At the same time it will expose the lies, for instance, of Neo-Nazi Mahmoud Ahmadinejad -- president of Iran, who denies the historical fact of the Holocaust.
FP: What do you make of Hamas recently claiming in one of their documentaries that the Jews themselves devised the Holocaust?
HVC: The Hamas claim is complete nonsense as are the claims of those who declare that there was no Holocaust. Hamas has no documentation. Several concentration camp commandants were put on trial at the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg, Germany after WWII. They were judged on the basis of facts. There is ample evidence of the atrocities including the Holocaust. I take exception to former president Jimmy Carter's sitting down with the head of Hamas, a terrorist and murderer who like many other Arabs is walking in the footsteps of Hitler. Carter does not know the difference between right and wrong.
FP: As you are probably aware, the David Horowitz Freedom Center recently submitted a "Declaration Against Genocide" to over 200 campus papers calling on campus groups, including the Muslim Students Association, to repudiate, among other things, Hamas' Charter, which calls for the annihilation of Israel, Iranian dictator Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's similar sentiments, and the call to genocide that has been attributed to the prophet Mohammed. ("The Prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time [of judgment] will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!")
Many campus groups, who style themselves as the symbols of progress and human rights, have refused to sign the declaration. The Left is frothing at the mouth at this campaign. The Muslim Students Association has also refused to sign and its chapter in Milwaukee slandered Horowitz and printed a Nazi-like flyer defaming him. The flyer included, among other things, an armband around an image of Horowitz ? the type the Nazis used to identify Jews.
What do you make of these developments?
HVC: It does not astonish me that the Islamic student organizations in the United States do not respond to the "Declaration against Genocide" which was issued by David Horowitz' Freedom Center. When I in 2006 together with two former terrorists was speaking in the Columbian University in New York, we were deserted by the university administration which on pressure by the Islamic student organization on the campus prevented the entry of our guests into the building and left them in pouring rain on the street.
Horowitz being slandered as a Nazi by the Muslim Students Association puts matters upside down. It was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseiny, who destroyed the good relationship between Arabs and Jews. He resided from 1941?1945 as a guest of Hitler in Berlin and took a leading part in the Nazi program of rounding up Jews and sending them to the concentration camps. Hitler and he had agreed to liquidate the Jews in Palestine and across the world. Shortly before the final end of the war he returned to Jerusalem and began to preach hatred against Jews and Americans.
Until then the relationship between Jews and Arabs had been guided by the concept of Emir Faisal Ibn Hussein, spokesman for the 22 new independent Arab states after WWI, who referred to Jewish claims in Palestine as 'modest and proper and offered the Jewish people 'a hearty welcome home.' The Grand Mufti introduced the denial of Israel's right to exist and organized the first pogrom in 100 years, introduced Socialism in Iraq and forced 250,000 Jews to leave the country.
When Nazi-Germany was defeated, the Soviets took over. In the sixties the KGB trained Yassir Arafat, the pupil and successor of the Grand Mufti, in its special-cops school Balashikha east of Moscow. I cannot describe the details of the development in this interview and must refer the reader to the full story in my book Defeating the Totalitarian Lie. A great part of this story was provided by General Mihai Pacepa, head of the Romanian equivalent of the CIA, which included foreign intelligence services, who defected to the United States in 1978. "Yuri Andropov, KGB chairman and later secretary general of the Soviet Communist Party," he stated "told me in 1972 that the Kremlin had decided to turn the whole Islamic world against Israel and the US. The Islamic students at the American universities who refuse to sign the "Declaration Against Genocide" are disciples of the Nazi and Soviet ideologies.
That is why I call the war the Islamic terrorists have inflicted on us a proxy war and that also includes the role of Iran. The strings are being pulled in Moscow.
FP: Hilmar von Campe, thank you for joining us.
HVC: Thank you again for giving me the opportunity to warn the American people. Ours is a unique nation with a unique Constitution and we must not bend to socialist attempts from inside and outside to take over. The United States must maintain her sovereignty and her mission to make freedom available to all humanity.
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Jamie Glazov is Frontpage Magazine's managing editor. He holds a Ph.D. in History with a specialty in U.S. and Canadian foreign policy. He edited and wrote the introduction to David Horowitz?s Left Illusions. He is also the co-editor (with David Horowitz) of The Hate America Left and the author of Canadian Policy Toward Khrushchev?s Soviet Union (McGill-Queens University Press, 2002) and 15 Tips on How to be a Good Leftist. To see his previous symposiums, interviews and articles Click Here. Email him at jglazov@rogers.com.
