Author Topic: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants  (Read 12634 times)

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Universe Prince

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Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« on: May 19, 2008, 05:45:46 PM »
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/17/italy?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront
      Sixty-eight per cent of Italians, fuelled by often inflammatory attacks by the new rightwing government, want to see all of the country's 150,000 Gypsies, many of them Italian citizens, expelled, according to an opinion poll.

[...]

Romanians were among the 268 immigrants rounded up in a nationwide police crackdown on prostitution and drug dealing this week, after new prime minister Silvio Berlusconi's likening of foreign criminals to "an army of evil".

[...]

Young Neapolitans who threw Molotov cocktails into a Naples Gypsy camp this week, after a girl was accused of trying to abduct a baby, bragged that they were undertaking "ethnic cleansing". A UN spokeswoman compared the scenes to the forced migration of Gypsies from the Balkans. "We never thought we'd see such images in Italy," said Laura Boldrini.
      



http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/19/europe/EU-GEN-Italy-Gypsies-Crackdown.php
      Berlusconi will lead a Cabinet meeting in Naples on Wednesday. Among measures expected to be decided at the meeting is a crackdown on illegal immigration and on foreigners who commit crimes.

[...]

Last week, the European Roma Rights center sent a letter to several Italian government officials, including Interior Minister Roberto Maroni, decrying what it called anti-Roma "pogroms" in Naples. The Budapest-based advocacy group asked the Italian government to provide protection to all Roma in Italy and to investigate what happened in Naples.
      



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/italian-tolerance-goes-up-in-smoke-as-gypsy-camp-is-burnt-to-ground-829318.html
      Yesterday Pope Benedict XVI and a small number of left-wingers raised lonely voices in central Naples against the national hardening of hearts towards Europe's perennial outsiders. To little avail: the Pope's appeal for a spirit of welcome and acceptance was met with a hail of angry rejection in blogged comments on news websites.

[...]

But the first act of ethnic cleansing in the new Italy passed off with little fuss. Flora Martinelli, the woman who reported the alleged kidnap attempt on her baby, said: "I'm very sorry for what's happening, I didn't want it to come to this. But the Gypsies had to go."
      
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fatman

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2008, 05:59:16 PM »
But fascism is ok UP

Universe Prince

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2008, 07:17:30 PM »
Heh. Yes, and peaceful too, I'm told.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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BT

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2008, 01:35:45 AM »
From what i can see the only official activity by the govt has been a crackdown on prostitutin nd drug dealing. And the gypsies were not the only targets.

Universe Prince

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2008, 04:44:10 AM »

From what i can see the only official activity by the govt has been a crackdown on prostitutin nd drug dealing. And the gypsies were not the only targets.


From what I've read, it's a crack down on immigrants. And no, gypsies were not the only targets, but, they seem to be getting a lot of the, ahem, dislike because, well, they're gypsies. Gypsies don't assimilate, don't integrate, don't ingratiate. Maybe they deserve being attacked and driven out. Maybe they don't. Anyway, it was merely that the stories about the gypsies seemed the most noteworthy that got them so prominently mentioned. Also perhaps the fact that the attack on the gypsies' camp seemed to occur without much concern from the government.

I also find interesting that this "anti-immigrant sweep" ("said Umberto Bossi, the minister of institutional reforms and federalism") is supposed to be about safety, protecting the citizens of Italy. Isn't that what the fuss about illegal immigration is here in the U.S.? Safety? Protecting U.S. citizens from criminals who sneak in, trample on our sovereignty, use up resources, steal tax dollars, rape, murder and refuse to speak English? And here is Italy doing what Minutemen only dream of doing. And yet, in all this, I see another parallel. As Italy tries to crack down on immigration and make immigration harder, people are noting that doing so could hurt local industry and business.

In addition, I see in the stories about all this that the call for "public safety" and immigration crackdowns comes from the people. Or at least the politicians the people elected say so. And then of course, the burning down of the gypsies' camp was done by local citizens. Citizens who wanted the gypsies driven out. Even to the point of accusing (quite possibly falsely) the gypsies of trying to kidnap a local child. The people, the citizens are choosing this course for themselves. It is as I have said before. Fascism, authoritarianism, the like, when these things come to rule over the populace, they come because the people have brought it upon themselves, chosen it for themselves. I think that is what the news reports are telling me, not directly, but biased or not I see the implications there in the reports. Not from the reporters' words, but from the actions being described.

I want to be hopeful, but I've become too cynical to believe these are somehow merely isolated incidents that don't really mean anything.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2008, 05:18:18 AM »
There is rhetoric and then there is action. From what you posted this big bad fascist machine is a paper tiger.

Here in blue tarpville those who complain the loudest about illegal immigrants are the same ones who get them a couple of Dos Ochos Hermanos to lay that truckload of pinestraw or work on the Koi pond in the back yard.

I pay them as much attention as i do these reports from Italy.




Plane

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2008, 05:30:10 AM »
Isn't it very important to point out that Fascists are people?

Isn't it important to observe that responsibility is individual?

HOw, if you insult all of fascism can you ever encourage moderate fascists?

Fascism isn't monolithic is it? Does it not behoove us to encourage the growth of moderate Fascism|?

Universe Prince

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2008, 06:17:34 AM »

There is rhetoric and then there is action. From what you posted this big bad fascist machine is a paper tiger.


Right. Molotov cocktails are just rhetoric.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 06:21:16 AM by Universe Prince »
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2008, 06:29:45 AM »

Isn't it very important to point out that Fascists are people?

Isn't it important to observe that responsibility is individual?

HOw, if you insult all of fascism can you ever encourage moderate fascists?

Fascism isn't monolithic is it? Does it not behoove us to encourage the growth of moderate Fascism|?


As I resist saying something unkind, I don't recall having blamed fascism. I do believe I blamed people, individuals. Let me look back and see... um... yes, I did. I'll even repeat it, just for you. "In addition, I see in the stories about all this that the call for 'public safety' and immigration crackdowns comes from the people. Or at least the politicians the people elected say so. And then of course, the burning down of the gypsies' camp was done by local citizens. Citizens who wanted the gypsies driven out. Even to the point of accusing (quite possibly falsely) the gypsies of trying to kidnap a local child. The people, the citizens are choosing this course for themselves." Yes, I talked about people choosing their own actions. I did not blame fascism. I blamed people. I observed the responsibility of individuals.

Interesting, though, that you choose to try to equate fascism and Islam. See there? I observed the responsibility of the individual again.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2008, 06:50:43 AM »

Isn't it very important to point out that Fascists are people?

Isn't it important to observe that responsibility is individual?

HOw, if you insult all of fascism can you ever encourage moderate fascists?

Fascism isn't monolithic is it? Does it not behoove us to encourage the growth of moderate Fascism|?


As I resist saying something unkind, I don't recall having blamed fascism. I do believe I blamed people, individuals. Let me look back and see... um... yes, I did. I'll even repeat it, just for you. "In addition, I see in the stories about all this that the call for 'public safety' and immigration crackdowns comes from the people. Or at least the politicians the people elected say so. And then of course, the burning down of the gypsies' camp was done by local citizens. Citizens who wanted the gypsies driven out. Even to the point of accusing (quite possibly falsely) the gypsies of trying to kidnap a local child. The people, the citizens are choosing this course for themselves." Yes, I talked about people choosing their own actions. I did not blame fascism. I blamed people. I observed the responsibility of individuals.

Interesting, though, that you choose to try to equate fascism and Islam. See there? I observed the responsibility of the individual again.



So what are we doing to encourage the growth of moderate Fascism|?

 

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2008, 07:52:11 AM »
It is easy to want to expel Gypsies, being as many of them, especially those who have sneaked in from Yugoslavia, are organized bands of pickpockets, cutpurses and thieves. The Gypsies the Italians do not like,and no one else would like, either. These Gypsies are not musicians, they are not the bearers of a unique and intriguing culture, they they are illiterate, unprincipled thieves.

I see no reason to encourage any sort of Fascist movement. There are good reasons for wanting to round up illegal Gypsies and send them packing, or perhaps put them in prison for the crimes they commit. But arresting criminals and thieves is not Fascism, it's just a good idea.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 12:27:32 PM by Xavier_Onassis »
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BT

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2008, 10:35:39 AM »
Quote
Right. Molotov cocktails are just rhetoric.

I seem to have missed the report where the govt was heaving the cocktails.


_JS

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2008, 02:27:12 PM »
Quote
Right. Molotov cocktails are just rhetoric.

I seem to have missed the report where the govt was heaving the cocktails.



Plausible deniability?

If the Government is responsible for inciting the people then are they not just as guilty as the individual who lit and threw the Molotov cocktail? Or to put it in terms the right wing in the States seems to take more seriously, if Osama bin Laden incited his followers to use planes as missiles then is he not guilty through his words as much as they were guilty through their actions?

The answer is, of course, yes. This is and has always been the problem of Fascism. Once it becomes accepted, once it is given equal accord to other political philosophies - then it degenerates into what it does best in the hands of the masses. It is built upon division and hate.

The hate of the Roma is common throughout Europe and is very much an accepted prejudice (much like hating Muslims and Latin Americans in this country). They are considered unhygienic, ignorant, foul, thieves, and unwilling to integrate with society. Mind you, the Roma have likely never caused a national economy any substantial harm. They do occasionally mess up a field with their caravan camps and yes, in some major tourist areas they will pick your pockets (Majorca is known for this). Of course, they'll do so without ever harming you - you can get off a red-eye train in Russia and a police officer may simply rob you at gunpoint. Yet, the Russians aren't known worldwide as muggers. Despite these possibilities, European cities are far safer than American cities.

Back to the point, Burlesconi and his Fascist political allies have been given Italian and international credentials. Now that they have legitimacy, you'll see, as Prince points out, they are by no means peaceful and democratic people.

You will also note people in this forum defending these thugs. Which honestly, is the most cowardly act of them all. I'm not really all that surprised. As I told Plane, though he ridiculed me for it, the right wing here has always been comfortable with Fascism. They share a lot of the same ideals and goals. I'd say more than a few of them wish they had the grapes of the fascists to go to the illegal immigrant's homes and throw Molotov cocktails. Fascists were always more concerned with action and less with talk than the American right.

 
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BT

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2008, 03:43:15 PM »
Quote
Plausible deniability
?

Please.

The govt incited the people? The people were already incited.

The Roma have been on the low end of the social stick for centuries.

Is Burlesconi a leader driving his country to a hate filled rage or is he simply a reflection of his people at this point in time.

Why is it when a Chavez is elected the people's will is done but when a Burlesconi is elected the sheeple have been mislead.





_JS

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2008, 03:44:49 PM »
Quote
Plausible deniability
?

Please.

The govt incited the people? The people were already incited.

The Roma have been on the low end of the social stick for centuries.

Is Burlesconi a leader driving his country to a hate filled rage or is he simply a reflection of his people at this point in time.

Why is it when a Chavez is elected the people's will is done but when a Burlesconi is elected the sheeple have been mislead.

So you have no problems with what the Italian Government is doing?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.