Author Topic: Gas prices in other countries  (Read 23247 times)

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_JS

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Re: Gas prices in other countries
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2008, 08:04:37 PM »
Building refineries has absolutely nothing to do with it. That is a myth of the right wing. Ask yourself this Sirs, if you were a CEO of Exxon and making massive profits - would you build a refinery, thereby increasing supply, thereby reducing profits?

The answer is obvious and I've given you the links to memos from the oil companies in the 1990's when they closed twenty-six refineries to purposefully reduce supply and increase price. These guys don't want to build refineries. It is extremely expensive to open a new refinery. And you blame "the Left" (some neo-mystical force that prevents everything good, no doubt), but the reality is that Shell, Exxon, and others have been the hardest on small oil firms that try to build their own small, new, and efficient refineries. The technology is there to easily meet government environmental regulations. The reality is that these companies don't like competition and they have no desire to increase supply. Both of those possibilities might reduce profits. And they always have people like Sirs to defend them! It is a wonderful system of pissing down people's backs and having those people tell others that it is rain!! Yipee!

You think they give a half shit about ANWR? It is extremely expensive to get up there and drill. Even if you all get your way and let them simply rape the land and not bother with environmental regulations, it is still far too little of a return on Energy ROI. That oil is useless. Only the Chinese and Japanese will bother with such impure crude oil. Not even our ancient and massively polluting refineries in Louisiana and Texas will touch that crap. That isn't Saudi pure liquid gold up there, my friend. That is sweet crud, filled with heavy metals and sulfur. It won't move your car two feet. It will fire a Chinese power plant and give 20,000,000 more Chinese workers an early death though. And you have to pay workers a hell of a lot more than usual to get up there and freeze their nards off, cut through permafrost, build ice roads in the winter, and pay exorbitant amounts to get the crap out. And for what? Low quality petroleum, when the easy sands of Saudi Arabia still produce nice high quality stuff.

And y'all are supposed to be the businessmen?  ::)

This is about the bottom line, and you can listen to Rush and the other blowhards and read the Daily Hate Mail, but the truth is that those oil companies have no desire to build more refineries or drill in godforsaken parts of the globe. If they did, and there were buckets of cash to be made - they'd be doing it today.

 
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sirs

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Re: Gas prices in other countries
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2008, 08:26:11 PM »
Building refineries has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Sure it does.  Oil coming out of the ground requires being refined.  It's one of the reasons Iran has so little oil useage, despite sitting on one of the largest plots of oil....liack of refineries.  We haven't built a refinery in.....how many years now??  And refineries take the oil we have either pulled up ourselves, or whatever crude we have purchased from abroad, and refine it to whatever it is that oil is meant to become.  The severe shortage of refiners --> the much less refined oil we can use for items such as... GASOLINE


That is a myth of the right wing. Ask yourself this Sirs, if you were a CEO of Exxon and making massive profits - would you build a refinery, thereby increasing supply, thereby reducing profits?

I'm referencing what we could do to DECREASE the amount we pay at the pump, and you're there reinforcing my point.  Do I really need to google all the refinery projects stopped by way of legisation at the behest of enviromental groups, and judicial decisions by activist judges??


It is extremely expensive to open a new refinery.

made MORE costly by the insidious amount of lawsuits and litigation aimed to primairly make such acts so cost prohibitive


And you blame "the Left"

It sure as hell ain't "the right".  Yea, in particular left wing enviromental lobbies and extremists, and those Politicians beholden to them for their significant donations.  But I understand the tactic being employed.  Cause all sorts of litigious, legislative, and financial roadblocks aimed at "big oil", then castigate the same group for making profits brought about by the same practices that facilitated the profits in the 1st place


You think they give a half shit about ANWR? It is extremely expensive to get up there and drill. Even if you all get your way and let them simply rape the land and not bother with environmental regulations, it is still far too little of a return on Energy ROI. That oil is useless.

LOL.....I see you have the Left wing enviromental talking points down to a tee.  Everything from how expensive, to raping the land, to useless oil.  Impresive.  A) the expense would be offset by the revenues and jobs the new oil brought in would be.  B) the latest techniques leave a mere microblotch on the land as a whole, with their ability to drill nearly horizontally.  C) The oil would increase our own supply, and decrease the overall demand......whala, lower gasoline prices


Only the Chinese and Japanese will bother with such impure crude oil. Not even our ancient and massively polluting refineries in Louisiana and Texas will touch that crap.

I tell you what, let's give them the opportunity, then if they decide they don't want to touch it, then we can move on.


And y'all are supposed to be the businessmen?  ::)

Huh??


This is about the bottom line, and you can listen to Rush and the other blowhards and read the Daily Hate Mail, but the truth is that those oil companies have no desire to build more refineries or drill in godforsaken parts of the globe. If they did, and there were buckets of cash to be made - they'd be doing it today.

Back to the talking points, I see.  Even added the Xo tact of claiming I'm listening to Rush.  I guess I should then claim that you listening to Al Franken & Air Hate America isn't helping you out any here either.  Get back to me when we actually have examples of such efforts not wanting to be peformed vs being prevented from being performed
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 03:51:06 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

fatman

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Re: Gas prices in other countries
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2008, 08:33:18 PM »
We haven't built a refinery in.....how many years now??  And refineries take the oil we have either pulled up ourselves, or whatever crude we have purchased from abroad, and refine it to whatever it is that oil is meant to become.  The severe shortage of refiners --> the much less refined oil we can use for items such as... GASOLINE

In the last 23 years, the EPA has had one, that is one as in uno, request for a new refinery, and it was approved.  One of the largest problems has been the buyouts of independents in the last 20 years, now all the oil is controlled by a handful of mega companies.  I'm not necessarily saying that's bad, but it is easier to price fix with a handful of big companies vs. a bunch of smaller ones.

And I'm a big believer in nuclear power.

_JS

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Re: Gas prices in other countries
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2008, 08:50:53 PM »
Quote
I'm fereferning what we could do to DECREASE the amount we pay at the pump, and you're there reinforcing my point.  Do I really need to google all the refinery projects stopped by way of legisation at the behest of envirometal groups, and judicial decisions by activist judges??

Yes. Please provide some evidence.

Quote
A) the epense would be offset by the revenues and jobs the new oil brought in would be.  B) the latest techniques leave a mere microblotch on the land as a whole, with their ability to drill nearly horizontally.  C) The oil would increase our own supply, and decrease the overall demand......whala, lower gasoline prices

You ought to try never talking about economics Sirs. You're really bad at it.

1. Expenses would be offset by jobs?  ::)

Only if you've decided to institute slavery again! (and even then you'd have to transport them to Alaska) Sirs, it costs businesses a hell of a lot of money to have a workforce. It costs even more when you want a workforce in the middle of nowhere in Alaska and the closest "city" is a nothing town hundreds of miles away. Expenses are never offset by personnel expenses. That is completely daft. You better hope that revenues offset expenses, that's the whole friggin' point. That's exactly why Shell isn't knocking down anyone's door and running over Exxon to be the first one's there. It isn't worth the investment. The ROI is too low.

2. The latest techniques blah, blah, blah. I'm not some radical environmentalist. You think you know me because you want to pigeonhole me as a typical liberal. I'm a socialist. If there are good jobs for workers, I'm all for it. I'm telling you why "Big Oil" has no interest in it.

3. Increasing supply doesn't equal decreasing demand. It also doesn't stand to reason that we would be the ones using the oil Sirs. Whether you like it or not, not all oil is equal. The oil from Alaska is not good, it is highly impure. Let me make this simple.

Oil = Energy. It costs energy to refine oil. So there exists a ratio of X:Y of energy input to energy output. The greater X is, the worse off you are. X is increased by the impurity of the oil. Do you know why people quit pumping oil from Texas, Tennessee, Oklahoma? Because it is crap. Alaska is about one tier better. Somewhere, many tiers higher is Saudi oil. Saudi oil makes certain that X is very low and that means profits can be very high.

Does that make sense? I'm being sincere. There is a point where X is so high that it takes more energy input than you get in output. Then you've accomplished nothing. The same is true of coal. We're geologically luckier in that regard because Appalachian coal is the good stuff.

The problem Sirs, is that you don't seem to be able to grasp a bigger picture. If I am a CEO of Shell, tell me why I want to build a refinery. Why do I want to bother with ANWR? I have no incentive. You can throw around court cases, mean leftists, etc...but I'm a CEO of a massive corporation with deep pockets and plenty of influence on Capitol Hill. If I want a refinery, I'll find a place to build it, even if it is another country (which has been the trend). I'll drill where I please. I'll line the necessary pockets if we're talking about billions of dollars.

So why don't I?
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Lanya

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Re: Gas prices in other countries
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2008, 10:34:02 PM »
<<So why don't I?>>

Because you're a mean nasty  oilman with a heart of...I don't know, lead, and you'll only drill if Pauline (as in Perils of) will marry you but she won't, so you'll hold the whole damn world hostage until she comes around like a dutiful woman should, and her father's got the consumption and no doctor will come see him because they're so very poor...

Oh.
Never mind.;)
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Rich

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Re: Gas prices in other countries
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2008, 10:48:22 PM »
I recall Nancy Pelosi and the rest of the democrats telling us that if elected, they would lower gas prices.

Seems to me that after the 2006 election prices really shot up.

Could they have been lying?

hmmmmmmm

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Gas prices in other countries
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2008, 10:57:32 PM »
"Do you really consider <10% profit on sales to be "charging too much"?

dont the oil companies have a smaller profit margin than Microsoft, Starbucks, and many other companies?

i heard some democrat senator ask an oil executive in some moralistic way today, "how much is your yearly salary"?
I wish the executive would of said "shame on you senator" -"it is none of your damn business you crook!"

Exxon didn't pilfer Social Security!
Exxon doesn't fail to educate our kids
Exxon didnt waste billions in Katrina Aid mismanagement
Exxon didn't bang hoes in the Oval Office
Exxon was not responsible for the House Post Office Scandal
Exxon didn't allow airlines to skip safety measures
Exxon doesn't neglect to enforce our border security
Exxon doesnt print money and spend more than they take in
Exxon doesn't sit back like gvt, not produce anything, and yet still reap billions from Exxon oil
gvt has the balls to condemn Exxon but happily take the billions in tax $ from Exxon to spend on pork, ect

"Mr. Highhorse Senator" if "Exxon Money" is so "dirty" and "immoral" why the hell do you love it so much?
Like the crooks running the congressional pork belly/lobbiest circus are some examples of morality?
LOL , now thats funny

Maybe ask Tiger Woods how much he makes a year? Probably triple what most top oil executives make.
Tiger employs maybe a few dozen people, when the oil exec employs tens of thousands and produces a vital product.

What a sham for the oil companies to be demonized by leeches that produce nothing.




« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 11:01:18 PM by ChristiansUnited4LessGvt »
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Plane

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Re: Gas prices in other countries
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2008, 11:56:47 PM »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/27/AR2005102702399.html

Quote
"...Even so, many companies smaller than Exxon Mobil "earn" more, depending on what measure is used.

Most financial institutions, such as commercial banks, are routinely more profitable than Exxon Mobil was in its third quarter. For example, Exxon Mobil's gross margin of 9.8 cents of profit for every dollar of revenue pales in comparison to Citigroup Inc.'s 15.7 cents in 2004. By percentage of total revenue, banking is consistently the most profitable industry in America, followed closely by the drug industry.

Altria Group, the maker of Marlboro and other cigarettes, made 22 cents for every dollar of revenue in 2004, and pharmaceutical company Merck made 25.3 cents for every dollar of revenue in 2004.

By other measures, such as profit per employee, return on invested capital and free cash flow, Exxon Mobil is nowhere near a standout...."




http://www.gravmag.com/oil.html#price
Quote
In the history of the world, according to AAPG presidential address, April 1993,
750 billion barrels have been produced.
1000 billion barrels are known in the ground
1000 billion barrels are estimated undiscovered
World proved reserves: 1,081 to 1,293 billion barrels
2 trillion is a common number you see for unproduced oil - but by no means does everyone agree on that number. "Peak Oil" people say half of all that can be produced has been produced (or soon will be) and half remains - maybe 1 trillion produced, 1 trillion remaining.

..........................................................

"....it is impossible to remove all my bias, even though as a scientist (geologist) I try to do that..................

....in the late 1990s I really thought the "peak oil" people were crazy, or at least "doomsayers" and pessimists. Oil exploration people (like me) tend to be optimistic - you have to be, since you fail so often. But in the past 5 to 7 years, I've come to feel, largely through creating this compilation, that the "peak oil" people are a lot closer to right than are the "sweetness-and-light-and-nothing-is-really-wrong" crowd. I don't KNOW that - but based on what I can see and read with my own eyes, there is little question that Americans' oil guzzling will bring us to a fall, likely sooner rather than later...."



The demand of the world for oil products if up a lot , the supply has stopped increaseing at a rate that keeps up with demand.

The law of Supply and demand is a law of nature , it is not violated without cost.

The Executives of the oil produceing companys are getting a bum rap in my opinion , if you fired every one of them and replaced them with clones of Mother Teresa the price of oil would still rise as it grew scarce, probly no less.

So lets make a theroetical standard , in which the decisions of oil executives were absolutely correct from the customers point of view , how much less woud we now be paying? I don't think that there is very much room for improvement .

fatman

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Re: Gas prices in other countries
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2008, 12:52:47 AM »
i heard some democrat senator ask an oil executive in some moralistic way today, "how much is your yearly salary"?

Do you recall what the answer was?  One exec said "I don't recall".  Talk about absurdity.  And I notice that Arlen Specter wasn't shy about slamming the oil companies either.

Plane

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Re: Gas prices in other countries
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2008, 01:27:43 AM »
i heard some democrat senator ask an oil executive in some moralistic way today, "how much is your yearly salary"?

Do you recall what the answer was?  One exec said "I don't recall".  Talk about absurdity.  And I notice that Arlen Specter wasn't shy about slamming the oil companies either.


That is just being diplomatic .

Telling the senator that he didn't have a right to ask that would have also been appropriate , if less diplomatic.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Gas prices in other countries
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2008, 01:54:59 AM »
How likely is this dork to not recall his salary, really?

You had better believe that it is astronomical.
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Universe Prince

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Re: Gas prices in other countries
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2008, 02:11:01 AM »

Ask yourself this Sirs, if you were a CEO of Exxon and making massive profits - would you build a refinery, thereby increasing supply, thereby reducing profits?


If I'm the CEO of Exxon, the answer is yes, because I'm thinking long term. Higher prices might not immediately result in reduced demand, but it will in the long term. Lower prices help keep demand high. If I, as CEO, expect to continue profitability and growth with 10% profit, then yes, absolutely I would build a new refinery. That is, of course, provided that I could find a place to build it, and get permission to build it there, and get the land rezoned, and get the permits necessary to have an oil refinery in operation. One does not simply buy up some land and build an oil refinery. Before all the myriad of permits one must get, first one needs permission to build the damn thing in the first place. And most places seem opposed to having an oil refinery around. Something about pollution concerns. Go figure.

That one guy who got a permit to build that Fatman keeps talking about, the site for the refinery had to be moved because Phoenix changed it's clean air requirements. As of 2005, he had spent $30 million and still had not started building. And he still had more permits to get and to have the land rezoned. And then he apparently had to wait for a lawsuit brought by some American Indians to be settled. So the notion that somehow this is all some easy process that the oil companies are too greedy to participate in, it's just something I don't buy.

I'm not saying there isn't a matter of profit consideration involved in the decision making, but if building a refinery elsewhere and shipping in the refined product is cheaper and easier, then yeah, the CEO is probably going to do that instead. And while people bitch and moan about "record" profits, their profit margin just isn't that big. A huge increase in expenditure that may not be followed by a comparable increase in revenue is a huge risk, and if you think the U.S. oil and gasoline problem is bad now, just wait till the oil companies are struggling to survive. Then, as my dad might say, we'd really be hurtin'.
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Universe Prince

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Re: Gas prices in other countries
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2008, 02:18:48 AM »

i heard some democrat senator ask an oil executive in some moralistic way today, "how much is your yearly salary"?

Do you recall what the answer was?  One exec said "I don't recall".  Talk about absurdity.  And I notice that Arlen Specter wasn't shy about slamming the oil companies either.


I think I'd ask the senator what his yearly salary is. No, probably is not as high as the oil company executive, but most people could live quite comfortably on what senators make. It's something around $160,000 a year, I think. Possibly higher. And U.S. senators get to vote on whether they get a pay raise too. Seems to me, U.S. senators ought not to be criticizing how much money other people make.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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_JS

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Re: Gas prices in other countries
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2008, 03:54:27 AM »
If I'm the CEO of Exxon, the answer is yes, because I'm thinking long term. Higher prices might not immediately result in reduced demand, but it will in the long term. Lower prices help keep demand high. If I, as CEO, expect to continue profitability and growth with 10% profit, then yes, absolutely I would build a new refinery. That is, of course, provided that I could find a place to build it, and get permission to build it there, and get the land rezoned, and get the permits necessary to have an oil refinery in operation. One does not simply buy up some land and build an oil refinery. Before all the myriad of permits one must get, first one needs permission to build the damn thing in the first place. And most places seem opposed to having an oil refinery around. Something about pollution concerns. Go figure.

That is just simply incorrect Prince. You'd be right if we were dealing with a commodity with an elastic demand, but we're not. Oil has a very inelastic demand and increasing the supply will make no difference. A simple look at the statistics will show you that as the world production has significantly increased, yet demand has done nothing but increase significantly right alongside.

As for building a new refinery, it is generally far cheaper to expand existing refineries. Moreover it is easier to build them in countries where labor is cheaper and workers have fewer rights (why bother with their health and safety concerns?). So again, you've given me no incentive to increase supply.

Quote
I'm not saying there isn't a matter of profit consideration involved in the decision making, but if building a refinery elsewhere and shipping in the refined product is cheaper and easier, then yeah, the CEO is probably going to do that instead. And while people bitch and moan about "record" profits, their profit margin just isn't that big. A huge increase in expenditure that may not be followed by a comparable increase in revenue is a huge risk, and if you think the U.S. oil and gasoline problem is bad now, just wait till the oil companies are struggling to survive. Then, as my dad might say, we'd really be hurtin'.

Profit consideration is my whole point. There is no compelling reason to drill in the ANWR or build dozens of new refineries. As I've pointed out, these companies closed refineries in the 90's. Why build them now?!?

No, it isn't an evil conspiracy, it is just business. And these companies aren't all American either. The notion of American oil independence is a joke. Many of these companies aren't American at all. The ones that are, still have international business to conduct. I don't understand what "energy independence" is supposed to mean. It is a typical political sound byte that has no meaning in the real world of economics.

That one guy who got a permit to build that Fatman keeps talking about, the site for the refinery had to be moved because Phoenix changed it's clean air requirements. As of 2005, he had spent $30 million and still had not started building. And he still had more permits to get and to have the land rezoned. And then he apparently had to wait for a lawsuit brought by some American Indians to be settled. So the notion that somehow this is all some easy process that the oil companies are too greedy to participate in, it's just something I don't buy.

I'm not saying there isn't a matter of profit consideration involved in the decision making, but if building a refinery elsewhere and shipping in the refined product is cheaper and easier, then yeah, the CEO is probably going to do that instead. And while people bitch and moan about "record" profits, their profit margin just isn't that big. A huge increase in expenditure that may not be followed by a comparable increase in revenue is a huge risk, and if you think the U.S. oil and gasoline problem is bad now, just wait till the oil companies are struggling to survive. Then, as my dad might say, we'd really be hurtin'.[/color]
[/quote]
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Re: Gas prices in other countries
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2008, 03:57:14 AM »
Quote
I wish the executive would of said "shame on you senator" -"it is none of your damn business you crook!"

It is a matter of record for a publicly traded company. It wouldn't be very difficult to obtain, the media does it all the time.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.