Gas prices in other countries

[sirs]

So I guess I need to flood the site with the multitude of efforts brought forth by the enviromental fringe, as it relates to litigations & lawsuits, and those politicians beholden to them, who have been instrumental at producing new regulation after new regulation, specifically impeding, when not out and out blocking ,any effort to expand both refinery contruction and drilling expansion, by "big oil"

And I'm also going to guess my list will far outnumber your article.  And if that happens, your response will be............?  Just trying to glimmer the rationalization effort you'd likley play

[Plane]

No, not false at all.  Where are the indictments??  Where's the illegal activity??  Where's the unlawful conduct??  When the rubber hits the road there is none, outside of the continued issues regarding supply and demand and the continued efforts to BLOCK & IMPEDE any effort to increase supply by the enviromental lobby and those politicians/judges beholden to them

Did you not read the articles? Did you not see where Shell broke the law? Where the oil companies closed refineries to decrease supply and increase profits?

I provide you the documents, and yet you refuse to read them. They completely contradict your statement.

Did they really close profitable enterprises?

[Universe Prince]

And of course, you read the rest of it, correct Prince?

I did. And I know it's shocking, shocking! that oil companies were/are concerned about making a profit. Why can't they just forget about profit and depend on government bailouts like everyone else?

Sarcasm aside, I get that you saying the greed for profits is keeping gas prices artificially high and that greed for profit means the oil companies won't bother with new refineries. One thing I think the memos also point out is that the costs of conforming to environmental regulations has also cut into profits, particularly regarding refineries. The regulations helped cut into the refinery margins because the refinery is where many of the regulations have to be implemented. That is not, in itself, an argument against the regulations, just a recognition of what regulation has accomplished. The more we increase the cost of production, the more the oil companies have to look for ways to maintain profitability. That we are now supposed to be offended that the oil companies have cut back on supply to achieve a measly 10% profit margin, most of which, as I understand it, gets reinvested in the company. The alternative, in broad strokes, being that the companies fail and end up with huge government bailouts to keep the companies in operation and thousands of people end up out of work anyway. The oil companies are not the bad guys in this tale. I'm not sure there are any bad guys in this tale. Not even the folks who seem to think somewhere there is an oligarchy that sits around making prices too high out of a desire to screw the masses. The closest might be the guys at Shell that you're complaining about, but I notice they were investigated but not prosecuted.

[_JS]

And of course, you read the rest of it, correct Prince?

I did. And I know it's shocking, shocking! that oil companies were/are concerned about making a profit. Why can't they just forget about profit and depend on government bailouts like everyone else?

Sarcasm aside, I get that you saying the greed for profits is keeping gas prices artificially high and that greed for profit means the oil companies won't bother with new refineries. One thing I think the memos also point out is that the costs of conforming to environmental regulations has also cut into profits, particularly regarding refineries. The regulations helped cut into the refinery margins because the refinery is where many of the regulations have to be implemented. That is not, in itself, an argument against the regulations, just a recognition of what regulation has accomplished. The more we increase the cost of production, the more the oil companies have to look for ways to maintain profitability. That we are now supposed to be offended that the oil companies have cut back on supply to achieve a measly 10% profit margin, most of which, as I understand it, gets reinvested in the company. The alternative, in broad strokes, being that the companies fail and end up with huge government bailouts to keep the companies in operation and thousands of people end up out of work anyway. The oil companies are not the bad guys in this tale. I'm not sure there are any bad guys in this tale. Not even the folks who seem to think somewhere there is an oligarchy that sits around making prices too high out of a desire to screw the masses. The closest might be the guys at Shell that you're complaining about, but I notice they were investigated but not prosecuted.

Prince, I never said there are bad guys in this tale. I simply provided documents that refuted a commonly held right-wing notion that the only thing preventing new refineries are wacko environmentalist nutters. I also wanted to point out that Sirs was incorrect in claiming that these investigations proved nothing.

I made a point a while back that oil companies had little incentive to construct new refineries and I believe this makes that argument well. I'm not exactly sure why you or Sirs has painted me into some conspiracy theorist, can you show me where I've indicated that I believe in some sort of oil oligarchy?

[_JS]

So I guess I need to flood the site with the multitude of efforts brought forth by the enviromental fringe, as it relates to litigations & lawsuits, and those politicians beholden to them, who have been instrumental at producing new regulation after new regulation, specifically impeding, when not out and out blocking ,any effort to expand both refinery contruction and drilling expansion, by "big oil"

And I'm also going to guess my list will far outnumber your article.  And if that happens, your response will be............?  Just trying to glimmer the rationalization effort you'd likley play

Sirs, I've asked you to provide evidence for many of your arguments beforehand. I'll be amazed if you even bother.

Yet, that hasn't refuted what I've posted nor your inability to respond. Can you not just admit that you were wrong?

[Universe Prince]

I'm not exactly sure why you or Sirs has painted me into some conspiracy theorist, can you show me where I've indicated that I believe in some sort of oil oligarchy?

I was not referring to you with the oligarchy remark. Sorry for the confusion there.

Anyway, I think the oil companies do have a reason to try to up production of gasoline. Same reason they closed refineries. Profit. As I said before, higher prices for gas will cut into demand in the long term. We may not see gas for less than $2/gallon ever again, but bringing the price down would be in the best interest of the oil companies. Many people are already figuring out ways to cut gas consumption. $4/gallon (roughly speaking) gas cuts sharply into paychecks. Particularly those who have chosen not to live close to work. Demand will decline, and even higher prices will not compensate, because that would only cause more decline. We may not get refineries here in the U.S., but I think we will see lower gas prices before this is all over.

[sirs]

Prince, I never said there are bad guys in this tale. I simply provided documents that refuted a commonly held right-wing notion that the only thing preventing new refineries are wacko environmentalist nutters. I also wanted to point out that Sirs was incorrect in claiming that these investigations proved nothing.

And WHEN, WHEN, WHEN?? did I ever say the ONLY THING preventing new refineries being built were whaco enviromentalist nutters??    And where are the criminal indictments it was officially deterined something illegal had been discovered??  Where Js??  I think we can chalk that one up to you assuming what I'm supposedly believing as some supposed "typical republican", and not bothering to READ what I post.

[_JS]

I'm not exactly sure why you or Sirs has painted me into some conspiracy theorist, can you show me where I've indicated that I believe in some sort of oil oligarchy?

I was not referring to you with the oligarchy remark. Sorry for the confusion there.

Anyway, I think the oil companies do have a reason to try to up production of gasoline. Same reason they closed refineries. Profit. As I said before, higher prices for gas will cut into demand in the long term. We may not see gas for less than $2/gallon ever again, but bringing the price down would be in the best interest of the oil companies. Many people are already figuring out ways to cut gas consumption. $4/gallon (roughly speaking) gas cuts sharply into paychecks. Particularly those who have chosen not to live close to work. Demand will decline, and even higher prices will not compensate, because that would only cause more decline. We may not get refineries here in the U.S., but I think we will see lower gas prices before this is all over.

I'd say that you are right. There is an equilibrium to be reached and it depends on many factors. Consumers will be hit in many ways from high oil prices. Governments, from local, state, to federal use large fleets of vehicles as well as lots of energy to function. Corporations do as well, plus many modern corporations use a great deal of travel as most are spread out over national and international boundaries. One can imagine how the airplane, rental car, and hotel industries may be affected as well. For those who make wages in the low teens per hour and less, long commutes can definitely begin to create employment decisions.

It'll definitely be interesting to see what economic behaviors take place over the next few months to years.

[_JS]

Prince, I never said there are bad guys in this tale. I simply provided documents that refuted a commonly held right-wing notion that the only thing preventing new refineries are wacko environmentalist nutters. I also wanted to point out that Sirs was incorrect in claiming that these investigations proved nothing.

And WHEN, WHEN, WHEN?? did I ever say the ONLY THING preventing new refineries being built were whaco enviromentalist nutters??    And where are the criminal indictments it was officially deterined something illegal had been discovered??  Where Js??  I think we can chalk that one up to you assuming what I'm supposedly believing as some supposed "typical republican", and not bothering to READ what I post.

Blah, blah, blah.

Here is what you posted.

And all the while, with all the hyperbolic acccusations, with all the official investigations, and organized committees desginated to look into "big oil", their profits, supposed price gouging, & price manipulation, not 1 SHRED of evidence to support ANY of the allegations.

I gave you evidence. You threw in criminal allegations as an afterthought. The truth is that they did close refineries to increase price on consumers. That is an allegation against "Big Oil." And it was true, whether you like it or not.

You were wrong. Your statement above is not true.

[sirs]

You gave me evidence that companies will attempt to *gasp* make a profit, and when made too cost prohibitive, not try.  That's what you have provided.  No indictements, no criminal precedings, squat, zip, nada

Now, shall I start googling the mass amount of litigous efforts & regulations aimed at preventing if not completely derailing efforts for these same companies to build refineries and expand drilling??

[_JS]

You gave me evidence that companies will attempt to *gasp* make a profit, and when made too cost prohibitive, not try.  That's what you have provided.  No indictements, no criminal precedings, squat, zip, nada

Now, shall I start googling the mass amount of litigous efforts & regulations aimed at preventing if not completely derailing efforts for these same companies to build refineries and expand drilling??

No. I gave you evidence that refineries were closed, not because they were cost prohibitive, but because supply was too high and price needed to increase. I.E. price that you pay at the pump was considered too low and the oil companies wished to make a higher profit by closing refineries. That is essentially what many have been saying all along, yet you claim that these are "hyperbolic allegations."

Obviously you are WRONG.

Oil companies purposefully closed refineries in order to decrease supply and increase price. There's no hyperbole there, that is just a flat out fact. I gave you the documents, right there. Yet, you bitch and moan about litigious efforts. So the "refinery expansion crisis" is a load of horse feces. The refineries were there, you just weren't willing to pay enough for the plentiful petrol at the time.

Yes, you google away now. Toddle off.

[Plane]

You gave me evidence that companies will attempt to *gasp* make a profit, and when made too cost prohibitive, not try.  That's what you have provided.  No indictements, no criminal precedings, squat, zip, nada

Now, shall I start googling the mass amount of litigous efforts & regulations aimed at preventing if not completely derailing efforts for these same companies to build refineries and expand drilling??

No. I gave you evidence that refineries were closed, not because they were cost prohibitive, but because supply was too high and price needed to increase. I.E. price that you pay at the pump was considered too low and the oil companies wished to make a higher profit by closing refineries. That is essentially what many have been saying all along, yet you claim that these are "hyperbolic allegations."

Obviously you are WRONG.

Oil companies purposefully closed refineries in order to decrease supply and increase price. There's no hyperbole there, that is just a flat out fact. I gave you the documents, right there. Yet, you bitch and moan about litigious efforts. So the "refinery expansion crisis" is a load of horse feces. The refineries were there, you just weren't willing to pay enough for the plentiful petrol at the time.

Yes, you google away now. Toddle off.

I once knew a farmer who had an apple orchard , he was not makeing much profit , so he destroyed the Apple trees and planted grapes.

Did he do wrong? I really missed that Apple orchard.

[sirs]

And with all official investigations & congressional committes, the NO criminal indictments, NO Criminal prosecutions, NO illegal activity of any kind.  Pretty much what I said, thank you very much

[_JS]

Pretty much what I said...

LOL

I love it.

[Plane]

No. I gave you evidence that refineries were closed, not because they were cost prohibitive, but because supply was too high and price needed to increase. I.E. price that you pay at the pump was considered too low and the oil companies wished to make a higher profit by closing refineries. That is essentially what many have been saying all along, yet you claim that these are "hyperbolic allegations."

.

Oil companies purposefully closed refineries in order to decrease supply and increase price. There's no hyperbole there, that is just a flat out fact.

All right for the sake of this argument lets address the second half , would they be outside their rights to do this?
And the third half...
What is keeping one of the thousand other companys who could ,from building a refinery?