Author Topic: Death Knell for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?  (Read 6485 times)

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fatman

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Death Knell for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?
« on: May 22, 2008, 08:41:32 PM »
Federal court rules against military gays policy By GENE JOHNSON, Associated Press Writer
Thu May 22, 7:52 AM ET
 


SEATTLE - The military cannot automatically discharge people because they're gay, a federal appeals court ruled in the case of a decorated flight nurse who sued the Air Force over her dismissal.
 
The three judges from the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals did not strike down the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy. But they reinstated Maj. Margaret Witt's lawsuit, saying the Air Force must prove that her dismissal furthered the military's goals of troop readiness and unit cohesion.

The "don't ask, don't tell, don't pursue, don't harass" policy prohibits the military from asking about the sexual orientation of service members but requires discharge of those who acknowledge being gay or engaging in homosexual activity.

Wednesday's ruling led opponents of the policy to declare its days numbered. It is also the first appeals court ruling in the country that evaluated the policy through the lens of a 2003 Supreme Court decision that struck down a Texas ban on sodomy as an unconstitutional intrusion on privacy.

When gay service members have sued over their dismissals, courts historically have accepted the military's argument that having gays in the service is generally bad for morale and can lead to sexual tension.

But the Supreme Court's opinion in the Texas case changed the legal landscape, the judges said, and requires more scrutiny over whether "don't ask, don't tell" is constitutional as applied in individual cases.

Under the latest ruling, military officials "need to prove that having this particular gay person in the unit really hurts morale, and the only way to improve morale is to discharge this person," said Aaron Caplan, a staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union of Washington state who worked on the case.

Witt, a flight nurse based at McChord Air Force Base near Tacoma, was suspended without pay in 2004 after the Air Force received a tip that she had been in a long-term relationship with a civilian woman. Witt was honorably discharged in October 2007 after having put in 18 years ? two short of what she needed to receive retirement benefits.

She sued the Air Force in 2006, but U.S. District Judge Ronald B. Leighton dismissed her claims, saying the Supreme Court's ruling in Lawrence v. Texas did not change the legality of "don't ask, don't tell."

The appeals court judges disagreed.

"When the government attempts to intrude upon the personal and private lives of homosexuals, the government must advance an important governmental interest ... and the intrusion must be necessary to further that interest," Judge Ronald M. Gould wrote.

One of the judges, William C. Canby Jr., issued a partial dissent, saying that the ruling didn't go far enough. He argued that the Air Force should have to show that the policy itself "is necessary to serve a compelling governmental interest and that it sweeps no more broadly than necessary."

Gay service members who are discharged can sue in federal court, and if the military doesn't prove it had a good reason for the dismissal, the cases will go forward, Caplan said.

Another attorney for Witt, James Lobsenz, hailed the ruling as the beginning of the end for "don't ask, don't tell."

"If the various branches of the Armed Forces have to start proving each application of the policy makes sense, then it's not going to be only Maj. Witt who's going to win," Lobsenz said. "Eventually, they're going to say, 'This is dumb. ... It's time to scrap the policy.'"

An Air Force spokeswoman said she had no comment on the decision and directed inquiries to the Defense Department.

Lt. Col. Todd Vician, a Defense spokesman, said he did not know specifics of the case and could not comment beyond noting that "the DOD policy simply enacts the law as set forth by Congress."

Witt joined the Air Force in 1987 and switched from active duty to the reserves in 1995. She cared for injured patients on military flights and in operating rooms. She was promoted to major in 1999, and she deployed to Oman in 2003 in support of the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan.

A citation from President Bush that year said, "Her airmanship and courage directly contributed to the successful accomplishment of important missions under extremely hazardous conditions."

Her suspension and discharge came during a shortage of flight nurses and outraged many of her colleagues ? one of whom, a sergeant, retired in protest.

"I am thrilled by the court's recognition that I can't be discharged without proving that I was harmful to morale," Witt said in a statement. "I am proud of my career and want to continue doing my job. Wounded people never asked me about my sexual orientation. They were just glad to see me there."

Lanya

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Re: Death Knell for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2008, 10:37:09 PM »
Wonderful. I am so glad to see this.
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Plane

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Re: Death Knell for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2008, 11:29:30 PM »
This is truely awfull , but the 9th is the most often overturned court of any at that level, so the "Death Knell " isn't really loud.

Still the decision could possibly stick , I wonder how we are going to reverse this decision if it does turn out that the effects are negative?

Integrateing Women into the Active combat units of the Navy has been a truely awfull failure , but one that no commander can call a failure even  little bit. The ratchet has turned and going back to all male crews is not likely anymore.

Except on Submarines , where the old means of keeping the sexes apart is still working well.


Oh well , we may try this experiment and learn that effective armed services are impossible without sexual segregation , then we will do without effective defense for a few years , what could it hurt?

fatman

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Re: Death Knell for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2008, 12:50:44 AM »
That's absurd.  What this does is put the burden of proof onto the military that if they're going to discharge someone for being queer, then they need to show how that person being queer undermines the morale.  If it really does undermine the morale then it will come out and the dismissal will be upheld.  If it doesn't it exposes the policy for the stupid thing that it is. 

So it's put up or shut up time.  Either prove it causes morale problems, or shut up about it.  (I mean that broadly Plane, not directed at you personally).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 12:58:24 AM by fatman »

Plane

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Re: Death Knell for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2008, 01:01:18 AM »
That's absurd.  What this does is put the burden of proof onto the military that if they're going to discharge someone for being queer, then they need to show how that person being queer undermines the morale.  If it really does undermine the morale then it will come out and the dismissal will be upheld.  If it doesn't it exposes the policy for the stupid thing that it is. 

So it's put up or shut up time.  Either prove it causes morale problems, or shut up about it.

The effect on morale is pretty easy to understand , the effect on disapline that the integration of women into the active combat unit has had is instructive.

I was in the Navy , it would have been a mess for me to have a Cheif evaluateing my efficency and my sexual availibility at the same time , haveing women onboard ship has caused exactly this problem quite a lot.

The Military is about the only place I know where your supervision has such complete controll of your life , in the civillian world if your boss sexually harasses you you can sue him even if he is the President of the Uninted States , if you get fired for not putting out you are only fired . In the military it is worthwile to subtract this distraction as much as possible.

As far as what I have to put up , I would have left the Navy myself asap if the rules had changed this way , I don't think I am unusual enough to make this a safe bet.

fatman

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Re: Death Knell for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2008, 01:09:40 AM »
The effect on morale is pretty easy to understand , the effect on disapline that the integration of women into the active combat unit has had is instructive.

Is it hard to prove?  Because I haven't seen anything proving it yet.

I was in the Navy , it would have been a mess for me to have a Cheif evaluateing my efficency and my sexual availibility at the same time , haveing women onboard ship has caused exactly this problem quite a lot.

The problem here is with the Chief, not with you.  Are you saying that it's impossible for a male Chief to evaluate the efficiency of a female subordinate without including her sexual situation?  Because that's what it sounds like.

The Military is about the only place I know where your supervision has such complete controll of your life , in the civillian world if your boss sexually harasses you you can sue him even if he is the President of the Uninted States , if you get fired for not putting out you are only fired . In the military it is worthwile to subtract this distraction as much as possible.

Why is it worthwhile to institutionalize and codify bigotry and discrimination?  If the Chief in the response were to sexually harass the female subordinate, does she have no recourse?

As far as what I have to put up , I would have left the Navy myself asap if the rules had changed this way , I don't think I am unusual enough to make this a safe bet.

So freedom and non-discrimination are great things to pay lip service to, but when it comes time to put it into action you'd rather leave than deal with it.  Ok.

BT

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Re: Death Knell for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"? (Plane, Pooch, Bear)
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2008, 01:18:49 AM »
To the best of your recollection how many Gay folks did you serve with?

How many alcoholics?



Plane

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Re: Death Knell for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2008, 01:22:18 AM »
[I was in the Navy , it would have been a mess for me to have a Cheif evaluateing my efficency and my sexual availibility at the same time , haveing women onboard ship has caused exactly this problem quite a lot.

The problem here is with the Chief, not with you.  Are you saying that it's impossible for a male Chief to evaluate the efficiency of a female subordinate without including her sexual situation?  Because that's what it sounds like.



Yes ,it has been a nightmare . Hundreds of unwanted pregnancys , thousands of accusations , I consider the experiment a failure .


A commander that admits that this policy isn't working is cutting his carreer short , Congress isn't listening for any reports of failure.


It doesn't matter whether the problem is with me of the Cheif does it? Either way it is a problem for the military effectiveness.

Plane

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Re: Death Knell for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"? (Plane, Pooch, Bear)
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2008, 01:23:58 AM »
To the best of your recollection how many Gay folks did you serve with?


Quote
None whatsoever.

How many alcoholics?





6

kimba1

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Re: Death Knell for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2008, 01:46:48 PM »
if women in the military is a failure.
it is highly likely something wrong with the U.S. system
I don`t recall isreal or russia having this problem
maybe it`s the fact it`s voluntary

but very few of our soldiers look like
alona tal


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alona_Tal

Plane

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Re: Death Knell for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2008, 04:29:10 PM »
if women in the military is a failure.
it is highly likely something wrong with the U.S. system
I don`t recall isreal or russia having this problem
maybe it`s the fact it`s voluntary

but very few of our soldiers look like
alona tal


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alona_Tal


What are the Isrelis doing diffrently ?
If it is working for them there must be some diffrence.

Amianthus

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Re: Death Knell for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2008, 04:33:03 PM »
What are the Isrelis doing diffrently ?
If it is working for them there must be some diffrence.

Mandatory enlistment. Everyone serves.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Death Knell for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2008, 04:42:31 PM »
What are the Isrelis doing diffrently ?
If it is working for them there must be some diffrence.

Mandatory enlistment. Everyone serves.

Well that is diffrent , I suppose that with such complete egalitarianism excluseion doesn't become an issue.

Do they ask or tell sexual orientation?

Amianthus

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Re: Death Knell for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2008, 04:44:58 PM »
Do they ask or tell sexual orientation?

Doesn't matter. If you're gay, you still have to serve.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Death Knell for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2008, 04:47:52 PM »
Do they ask or tell sexual orientation?

Doesn't matter. If you're gay, you still have to serve.


So they do not need to worry that anything that they might ever do will result in a dearth of volenteers?

I have to admit that this does solve the problems I was worried about , but it is a solution unavailible to us isn't it?