The State of Englishness

[Plane]

Mind you, I'm not saying the people who saw diversity in the set of photos were racist.

No?


Then what is your complaint against them , what made you feel superior for not observeing what they observed?

[Universe Prince]

How are negative traditions on your planet more durable than positive traditions on mine?

So there is no racism on your planet?

How old is this cultureal feature?

I am old enough to remember when Black people would consciously emulate White ones, the revulsion that revereses this is within my lifetime , entirely.

Yes, I'm sure that must be it. No way could this have started happening before your lifetime. And yes, I am being sarcastic. I have doubts that your personal experience marks the boundaries for U.S. cultural history.

But I am not understanding your insistance that racism has power to preserve itself as if it had its own mind and force of will

I respectfully suggest part of the problem you're having in understanding that has to do with the fact that I am not insisting anything remotely like that. I somewhat less respectfully suggest that you let me know when you are ready to quit frakkin' around and want to discuss what I actually said.

Then what is your complaint against them , what made you feel superior for not observeing what they observed?

I don't recall making any complaint against them. Merely an observation. If my tone seemed superior, and it probably did because even I noticed it, that would be because I believe my perspective of not caring about skin color any more than I care about hair color is better. You should not assume that means I have judged these other people to be racists or less than myself. Their perspective and mine just aren't the same. If I thought theirs was better, I'd probably have it instead. I could be wrong, after all, but I just don't believe I am. If I didn't believe my opinions and perspectives were correct, what would be the point in having them? If that makes me arrogant, well, too damn bad.

[Plane]

Then what is your complaint against them , what made you feel superior for not observing what they observed?

I don't recall making any complaint against them. Merely an observation. If my tone seemed superior, and it probably did because even I noticed it, that would be because I believe my perspective of not caring about skin color any more than I care about hair color is better. You should not assume that means I have judged these other people to be racists or less than myself. Their perspective and mine just aren't the same. If I thought theirs was better, I'd probably have it instead. I could be wrong, after all, but I just don't believe I am. If I didn't believe my opinions and perspectives were correct, what would be the point in having them? If that makes me arrogant, well, too damn bad.

It doesn't sound as if any of you had a harmfull intent or an attitude of supremicy.Nor were any of you feeling threatened , if this is racism at all it is a mild variety. What made you think it noteable?

[Quote ]

How are negative traditions on your planet more durable than positive traditions on mine?

...............................................

So there is no racism on your planet?[/Quote ]


I have not even implied that there is no racism , nor that further reductions in racism would be unwelcome , I am stating that people can learn during the course of just their lifetime everything that a person can learn. Having two lifetimes implies two persons and each one can only learn as much as one person can learn , it doesn't stack .

There is little new development involved there are reasons to change and there are reasons to avoid change , when the reasons are compelling change can be very rapid for a person , and society is made up of persons.

I am arguing against the notion that there is an overwhelming cultural inertia that builds up directly in purportion to years and multiplies by the number of generations. There are indeed places in which social racism gained its greatest extremes of evil in very short times and individuals who gave over racism in instants of Epiphany.

[kimba1]

  Re: The State of Englishness
? Reply #77 on: Today at 12:29:30 AM ? Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: kimba1 on May 30, 2008, 11:46:42 PM
what i find incredibly amazing about non-violent protest
soo many people say it won`t work and when it does the leaders usually get killed.
for something that`s supposed to be ineffective it sure get`s people upset
even now people are trying to invalidate ghandi.
the concept of non-violence is still a upsetting thought.






It isn't perfect , it can fail.
So can every other thing.

--------------------------------------------------------------
true
it happened in korea in the 80`s
but that incident was caused by the protesters fighting back
the thing about a non-violent protest is the acceptance people will get hurt or killed.
the trick is the willingness to let it happened.
it`s very hard for anyone to look good hurting or killing anyone who don`t fight back.
and ironicly still  non-violence yeald the least amount of casualty.
which is easy to understand since there very little chance of escalation.

[Universe Prince]

It doesn't sound as if any of you had a harmfull intent or an attitude of supremicy.Nor were any of you feeling threatened , if this is racism at all it is a mild variety. What made you think it noteable?

I'm not saying it is racism of any sort. As for what made me think it notable, I thought I made that fairly clear when I first spoke of it.

I am stating that people can learn during the course of just their lifetime everything that a person can learn. Having two lifetimes implies two persons and each one can only learn as much as one person can learn , it doesn't stack .

No one said it did. Between JS and myself, the point is that culture and traditional expectations within culture matter, and these things build up over many years, and even if some people learn not to be racist, the culture does not automatically change. You keep trying to make this about what an individual knows/learns. That is not the beginning and end of how racism effects culture. Why you seem unwilling to recognize this, I don't know. Particularly since you were the one arguing not that long ago about how racism is supposedly so complex and ingrained in humanity. Your stances seem contradictory.

I am arguing against the notion that there is an overwhelming cultural inertia that builds up directly in purportion to years and multiplies by the number of generations. There are indeed places in which social racism gained its greatest extremes of evil in very short times and individuals who gave over racism in instants of Epiphany.

That's real nice, but that doesn't mean there isn't still racism in our culture. Yes, culture can change. No one is saying it cannot. But the cultural effect of centuries of racism is not something that is going away in one or two generations. We've been working on this here just in the U.S. for at least 150+ years, and wow, we still have racism in our culture. Huh.

Yeah, believing that we no longer have racism in our culture would be nice. I believed that once. I knew racism still existed, but I thought those folks were the fringe kooks. They might be racist, but not the rest of us. Yeah, well, eventually reality started to poke through. One major scales falling from the eyes event was the Dubai Ports World scandal. I watched almost a whole country, Democrats and Republicans, conservative and liberals, who had no issue with a British company running our ports throw a collective hissy fit that a company from Dubai might end up doing no more than what the British company did. Possibly even less. But we, as a country, were not going to have it. So you can argue against cultural inertia till your fingerprints rub off, but as best I can tell, the reality of the situation does not support your position.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Racism exists even among Black Americans. Those with darker skin, especially the women, resent lighter-skinned women, and claim that they are less authentically Black, which they are, at least genetically. But lighter-skinned women have greater appeal with White audiences, so they are more successful. Beyonc? is the best example of this, but there are others, like Vanessa Williams the ex-Miss America.

On the other hand, for some reason, darker-skinned actors like Wesley Snipes, seen to have more appeal than lighter-skinned ones, like Sinbad.

You will find rather a lot about this by googling the word "color-struck". There is a whole sequence about this in Spike Lee's film "School Daze", which has a verbal dance number between the 'Wanabees' and the 'Jigaboos'.

In Haiti, this phenomena is even more prevalent, it seems.

[Plane]

It doesn't sound as if any of you had a harmfull intent or an attitude of supremicy.Nor were any of you feeling threatened , if this is racism at all it is a mild variety. What made you think it noteable?

I'm not saying it is racism of any sort. As for what made me think it notable, I thought I made that fairly clear when I first spoke of it.

I am stating that people can learn during the course of just their lifetime everything that a person can learn. Having two lifetimes implies two persons and each one can only learn as much as one person can learn , it doesn't stack .

No one said it did. Between JS and myself, the point is that culture and traditional expectations within culture matter, and these things build up over many years, and even if some people learn not to be racist, the culture does not automatically change. You keep trying to make this about what an individual knows/learns. That is not the beginning and end of how racism effects culture. Why you seem unwilling to recognize this, I don't know. Particularly since you were the one arguing not that long ago about how racism is supposedly so complex and ingrained in humanity. Your stances seem contradictory.

I am arguing against the notion that there is an overwhelming cultural inertia that builds up directly in purportion to years and multiplies by the number of generations. There are indeed places in which social racism gained its greatest extremes of evil in very short times and individuals who gave over racism in instants of Epiphany.

That's real nice, but that doesn't mean there isn't still racism in our culture. Yes, culture can change. No one is saying it cannot. But the cultural effect of centuries of racism is not something that is going away in one or two generations. We've been working on this here just in the U.S. for at least 150+ years, and wow, we still have racism in our culture. Huh.

Yeah, believing that we no longer have racism in our culture would be nice. I believed that once. I knew racism still existed, but I thought those folks were the fringe kooks. They might be racist, but not the rest of us. Yeah, well, eventually reality started to poke through. One major scales falling from the eyes event was the Dubai Ports World scandal. I watched almost a whole country, Democrats and Republicans, conservative and liberals, who had no issue with a British company running our ports throw a collective hissy fit that a company from Dubai might end up doing no more than what the British company did. Possibly even less. But we, as a country, were not going to have it. So you can argue against cultural inertia till your fingerprints rub off, but as best I can tell, the reality of the situation does not support your position.

OK it is not gone , but no amount of tijme is ever going to make the elimination of racism total.
It has gotten a lot better in liveing memory , we do not need to mark time and wait for four hundred years to pass as if time itself were the essence of racism.



Hhahahahahahahahah  "Your stances seem contradictory."hahahahahahaha!

You noticed this?

[_JS]

I am arguing against the notion that there is an overwhelming cultural inertia that builds up directly in purportion to years and multiplies by the number of generations. There are indeed places in which social racism gained its greatest extremes of evil in very short times and individuals who gave over racism in instants of Epiphany.

Where and when?

If you dare to say Germany in the 1930's I'll show you how Jews were treated by Christians in Europe for multiple centuries and how that hatred built over time. Just like African slavery, Antisemitism became second nature to the Christians of Europe.

There are very few places in history where racism has evolved spontaneously. There are very few places where racism has declined quickly.

The 400 year old man analogy is wasted because the institutions of society are older than one human being's lifetime. We do not live in a nihilistic world where every generation starts again from scratch. We build civilizations. Or to use a cliche, we stand on top of the shoulders of the previous generation for good and ill. No one is born a racist, it is learned.

Detroit and Memphis aren't poor and predominantly black because the individuals somehow make worse decisions or are failures. The American institutions are still built upon a society that engenders success for whites and provides little opportunity for blacks. It is not an accident, just as it is no accident that Native American Reservations are often like driving into third world countries. Our society was built to provide for white Europeans.

Bill Cosby doesn't help any with his rant. What will help is when those oppressed groups overcome the psychology placed upon them and the societal structures are changed or are destroyed to make a truly different society that does not punish one for his or her skin color. As Prince said, that is no different than punishing one for his or her hair color. It is completely irrational and emotional.

As an aside, here was a story on NPR recently:

Race Anxiety

[Universe Prince]

Hhahahahahahahahah  "Your stances seem contradictory."hahahahahahaha!

You noticed this?

I was being polite. Would you prefer I not be?

[BT]

I am beginning to get the impression that being a racist is ok. Can't help it.
Embedded in our culture dontcha know.

[Religious Dick]

I am beginning to get the impression that being a racist is ok. Can't help it.
Embedded in our culture dontcha know.

Today's taboos are tomorrow's fashion statements. Get caught in last night's sweater, and you're dead....

[Plane]

Hhahahahahahahahah  "Your stances seem contradictory."hahahahahahaha!

You noticed this?

I was being polite. Would you prefer I not be?

No, nononono!

I had noticed also that we had switched , but I am happy to have you show what you learned from last time.

You are makeing my points much better than I was.

[Universe Prince]

I had noticed also that we had switched , but I am happy to have you show what you learned from last time.

You are makeing my points much better than I was.

I haven't switched anything. My position is the same now as it was before.

[Universe Prince]

I am beginning to get the impression that being a racist is ok. Can't help it.
Embedded in our culture dontcha know.

Pooh yi.

[BT]

Pooh yi.

Brilliant reply.