A Winter Soldier's Tale - WARNING! some graphic video shots - disturbing

[Plane]

Jaban did a lot better and became the second largest economy in the world from a standing start , but is a pitiful fraction of Chinas size. If China were less obsessed with size , they might do better at prosperity because they would devote more to prosperity and less to controll.

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China is not obsessed with size. At least being obsessed with size is not why China took so much longer to industrialize.

 Japan managed to develop its economy because they had the US as a market where they could sell their manufactured goods, starting with stuff like toys made from discarded American beer cans. My father used to bring me these crappy little toy cars every week from the Katz Drugstore where he cashed his paycheck. They cost a nickel or a dime, depending on size. I loved the ugly little things. I imagine they are serious collectors' items these days.

China could not do this, because the US refused to recognize China and allowed no Chinese products to enter the US. Japan had a highly urban population that had extensive experience in factories. China had millions of rural peasants with no such experience, and no decent roads, no developed sites for raw materials, at least not compared with China.

Taiwan, being much more like Japan than China, managed to imitate what Japan had done. Hong Kong and Singapore and Korea followed the same pattern.

Taiwan and Japan are are among the major contributors to China's industrialization. Observe where your Sony products are made these days.

I am missing the part of this that makes "unity" a sine qua non . Mao's efforts at unity did not bring any success at prosperity for two decades.

Did the recovery of all the world really depend on dimestore toys sold to Americans? I am sure that it helped Japan just as you say , but it wasn't and shouldn't have been availible to China .

[Xavier_Onassis]

China did not industrialize sooner because of many factors. First, there was no capital to purchase factory equipment. Second, there was no market for Chinese products. Third, the infrastructure to ship the natural resources (coal, iron ore, other metals and wood) to manufacturing sites did not exist. Japan and Korea could ship much of their resources by coastal steamer. In Taiwan, the population is concentrated along the east coast, and the distances are small. There are no coastal steamers from Szechuan to Canton.

You cannot blame Mao for the US embargo on Chinese products. Form 1948 through 1977 or so, the US position on the PRC was "we will ignore you in every way in hopes you will collapse". It was the same strategy used on the USSR from 1919 through 1939. WWII made Stalin an ally against Hitler.

Before the US started buying huge amounts of goods from China, the capital to develop the PRC came from Hong Kong, Taiwan and Japan. From 1946 through the mid-1960's, these investors could easily find lucrative investment opportunities in their own countries.

[Plane]

China did not industrialize sooner because of many factors. First, there was no capital to purchase factory equipment.

Well duh, they became communist and killed or chased off the capitolists , bad decision number one.

Second, there was no market for Chinese products.

Like food and coal?

 Third, the infrastructure to ship the natural resources (coal, iron ore, other metals and wood) to manufacturing sites did not exist.

The Japaneese built most of their WWII navy from Chineese coal and iron shipped on rails they laid to the harbors they developed. Some of this stuff was ruined in the war , but not as badly as Europe.

Japan and Korea could ship much of their resources by coastal steamer. In Taiwan, the population is concentrated along the east coast, and the distances are small. There are no coastal steamers from Szechuan to Canton.

You cannot blame Mao for the US embargo on Chinese products.

Yes I can , there was no reason for a Mao other than communism and communism was a basic mistake itself.

Form 1948 through 1977 or so, the US position on the PRC was "we will ignore you in every way in hopes you will collapse". It was the same strategy used on the USSR from 1919 through 1939. WWII made Stalin an ally against Hitler.

Before the US started buying huge amounts of goods from China,

Savein their bacon.

the capital to develop the PRC came from Hong Kong,

British colony

Taiwan

Mortal enemy

and Japan.

unforgiven exploiter and US ally

From 1946 through the mid-1960's, these investors could easily find lucrative investment opportunities in their own countries.

If an embargo of American buying harmed China , what were they doing chaseing Americans out of their country ?

[Xavier_Onassis]

the capital to develop the PRC came from Hong Kong,
Quote
British colony
Taiwan
Quote
Mortal enemy
and Japan.
Quote
unforgiven exploiter and US ally
From 1946 through the mid-1960's, these investors could easily find lucrative investment opportunities in their own countries.
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Do you deny that this is true?

If Japan is unforgiven and Taiwan is a mortal enemy and Hong Kong is a British colony, the fact still remains that China was developed by investments from these places. Apparently the British did not wish to prevent Hong Kong Chinese from investing in the PRC. Apparently some Japanese were forgiven. After all, the people who established Sony and Panasonic were children during the Rape of Nanking. Apparently the some Taiwanese valued a fat return on their investments more than they valued their ideology. Just like Wal*Mart does today.

Mao was just this one guy. Other Chinese believed in him, followed him, died for him.

Had it not been for Mao and Chao Enlai, China would not have become the emerging power that it is today. Keep in mind that it was never part of Mao's plan for you to like him. You still can protest your displeasure by purchasing non-Chinese made footwear, though it'll cost you.

There were few Americans in China in 1947 and 1948. Some were missionaries, some were US agents, some were adventurers , some were all of the above. The US was arming Mao's enemies.Why should they have been allowed to remain? Should fundamentalist Muslims with no papers and no permission be allowed to stay in the US, then?

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You cannot blame Mao for the US embargo on Chinese products.
Quote
Yes I can , there was no reason for a Mao other than communism and communism was a basic mistake itself.

The Chinese have a right to be led by people you do not approve of. The embargo on China was imposed by the US government, not by Mao. You can approve of the embargo, you can disapprove of it, but if you buy a can of Raid, that is your act. You cannot blame your purchase on the roaches, and the roaches cannot blame you for roach poo on your countertop.

[Plane]

The Chinese have a right to be led by people you do not approve of. The embargo on China was imposed by the US government, not by Mao. You can approve of the embargo, you can disapprove of it, but if you buy a can of Raid, that is your act. You cannot blame your purchase on the roaches, and the roaches cannot blame you for roach poo on your countertop.

South Africa also has a right to be governed by peopel I disapprove of , but if I don't like Aparthied I might eschew South African products and embargo my stuff from them , even persuede my government to take such action.

This is diffrent from attacking the stinky government .

[Xavier_Onassis]

I am all for you boycotting whatever you disagree with.

I would mention that your boycotting of South Africa would be a bit tardy and more than a bit difficult, assuming that you are not hoarding diamonds and Krugerrands. I have never seen a single South African product in any store for decades.

Once JC Whitney sold me some tires and a muffler for my Renault 10 made there. It did not mention this in the catalog. They were satisfactory in every way, and cheap, too. This was in the late 1960's.

[Amianthus]

I have never seen a single South African product in any store for decades.

I bet some produce you eat in the winter comes from there. Agriculture products are their largest export.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I bet some produce you eat in the winter comes from there. Agriculture products are their largest export.


I have seen modest amounts of South African wine. If there are other products, they have not been labeled as such.

[Amianthus]

I have seen modest amounts of South African wine. If there are other products, they have not been labeled as such.

Their major exports are sugar, grapes, citrus, nectarines, wine and deciduous fruit.

[Plane]

I am all for you boycotting whatever you disagree with.

I would mention that your boycotting of South Africa would be a bit tardy and more than a bit difficult, assuming that you are not hoarding diamonds and Krugerrands. I have never seen a single South African product in any store for decades.

Once JC Whitney sold me some tires and a muffler for my Renault 10 made there. It did not mention this in the catalog. They were satisfactory in every way, and cheap, too. This was in the late 1960's.

Everything we are discussing here is past , but the embargo on South Africa actually helped, once enough nations and agencys signed on to it , the Embargo on China forced them to beg Nixon for Fertilzer so it worked pretty well too. Even though fewer nations were going along with it.

This makes me think of the Aparthied government of South Africa and the Mao Government in juxtaposition, did one of them ever commit a sin that the other did not?

[Xavier_Onassis]

This makes me think of the Aparthied government of South Africa and the Mao Government in juxtaposition, did one of them ever commit a sin that the other did not?

The Maoists did not practice anything like apartheid.

The South Africans never made children denounce their parents.

I don't see why this is of any consequence. No one is going to get a prize, ant they were two very different countries with very different problems.

What Nixon wanted from China was a promise that China not intervene in Vietnam if he bombed Hanoi and other parts of the north: that was a lot more important than a few loads of fertilizer.

[Plane]

This makes me think of the Aparthied government of South Africa and the Mao Government in juxtaposition, did one of them ever commit a sin that the other did not?

The Maoists did not practice anything like apartheid.

The South Africans never made children denounce their parents.

I don't see why this is of any consequence. No one is going to get a prize, ant they were two very different countries with very different problems.

What Nixon wanted from China was a promise that China not intervene in Vietnam if he bombed Hanoi and other parts of the north: that was a lot more important than a few loads of fertilizer.

Don't underestimate the value and power of fertilizer.

But ... this timeline seems wrong.

Nixon bombed Hanoi after his China visit?

[Amianthus]

But ... this timeline seems wrong.

Nixon bombed Hanoi after his China visit?

The US began bombing Hanoi in 1966, before Nixon was president.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Still, the main thing Nixon was after was a promise by Mao that China would not get involved in the Vietnam War, no matter what the US did or threatened to do.

He wanted to get out of Vietnam slowly enough that he would not preside over the takeover by the North.

Watergate made that possible, and neither Spiro Agnew nor Nixon was in office when the final rout occurred.