Author Topic: A Winter Soldier's Tale - WARNING! some graphic video shots - disturbing  (Read 14822 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
You're probably right.  In a purely relative sense, of course.  But Mr. Turner is a nobody.  One of millions.  One of millions who served, one of millions to have criticized the war.   His legitimacy as a person is of minimal to non-existent significance.  Far more interesting is the legitimacy of the invasion itself and the occupation.




He can't be one of millions that have killed two or more innocent victims , unless there are more than two million such victims.

If he were ordered to act this way then there are NCOs and Officers that can be named and perhaps prosicuted , depending on the quality of the evidence.

Is the evidence of the quality demanded in a courts marshal , or is it propaganda quality ?

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
<<He can't be one of millions that have killed two or more innocent victims , unless there are more than two million such victims.>>

Well, I lump together the killers, the do-nothing onlookers who participate in the cover-up and the superiors who sweep it all under the rug.  I figure there are millions of perps and onlookers and cover-up guys and officers who know how to stop this and don't - - I think people are way too easy on the military and in the result you really did end up with a lawless, criminal organization.  Not to say every single one of them is a bad apple, but they're pretty far gone.

<<If he were ordered to act this way then there are NCOs and Officers that can be named and perhaps prosicuted , depending on the quality of the evidence.>>

Nobody's interested, plane.  Once they started with these guys, there'd be no end to it.  It'd be like finding a loose thread in the carpet and then pulling and pulling and pulling until the whole fucking thing comes apart.  Nobody needs it.  Even a guy like me, I'm no longer interested in prosecuting these guys, what's the point?  I'm just happy to see those little spikes in the casualty count, another two guys in Mosul, one guy in Baghdad, etc.  It's the roughest kind of justice one can imagine, but better than no justice at all.  As long as they're wearing the same uniform . . .

<<Is the evidence of the quality demanded in a courts marshal , or is it propaganda quality ?>>

We can only guess.  Here's mine.  One case in a hundred, you might get domestic criminal quality evidence, the rest you meet a stonewall of eye-witness code of silence, deliberately botched investigations, failure to preserve evidence, dispersal of troops involved, etc.  If you're lucky, you'll find "propaganda quality" evidence, but most times you won't even find that.  IMHO, most of the war crimes committed are never even recorded as such, let alone that evidence would be left behind.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
I'm not sure why you insist on broad brushing and trying to sweep everyone into the net.

The perp you have is the perp you introduced to us.

I am not clear why you insist he is not worthy of our attention.

I believe the Winter Soldiers made a tactical error seating this murderer at the dais.

I think they realized this as he was confessing, judging by the discomfort of those sitting around him.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2008, 12:12:50 AM by BT »

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0

<<If he were ordered to act this way then there are NCOs and Officers that can be named and perhaps prosicuted , depending on the quality of the evidence.>>

Nobody's interested, plane.  Once they started with these guys, there'd be no end to it.  It'd be like finding a loose thread in the carpet and then pulling and pulling and pulling until the whole fucking thing comes apart.  Nobody needs it.  Even a guy like me, I'm no longer interested in prosecuting these guys, what's the point?  I'm just happy to see those little spikes in the casualty count, another two guys in Mosul, one guy in Baghdad, etc.  It's the roughest kind of justice one can imagine, but better than no justice at all.  As long as they're wearing the same uniform . . .


He is speaking to the Senate isn't he?
That is intrest , these guys do not do traffic infractions.

Remember that one of our Senators launched his political carreer with just this same confession during the Vietnam conflict , it later turned out to be a false confession but his career was well launched by then.


BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Quote
I'm just happy to see those little spikes in the casualty count, another two guys in Mosul, one guy in Baghdad, etc.

Again you confuse me. You cheer on American deaths (it's payback dontcha know, street justice if you will) but deny folks like Turner the same rules of engagement.

Why is that?






Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Again you confuse me. You cheer on American deaths (it's payback dontcha know, street justice if you will) but deny folks like Turner the same rules of engagement.

Why is that?
=========================================================================
Quite simply, because Turner isn't the problem.  There are a million guys like him.  Chasing down a symbolic few and prosecuting them is a gigantic waste of time, a fool's errand.  Worse yet, it's a distraction.  The real criminals are the guys who armed Turner and sent him to Iraq. Who started the war in the first place.  That's who oughtta be in the dock.

The punishment Turner deserves is death.  You know and I know that even if he were to be put on trial for his crimes (as if!) he will NEVER get the death penalty.  Nobody even gets life.  Nobody even gets 15 years.

SOMEBODY's gotta pay because crimes like this are too horrific to go unavenged.  So it comforts me to think, in some karmic way, every time some GI's head gets blown off in Baghdad, one more American war crime has been avenged.  Rough justice to be sure, but justice nevertheless, and the only kind I'm ever likely to see.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Quote
Quite simply, because Turner isn't the problem.

Sure he is.

He wouldn't be newsworthy if every other soldier who has served in Iraq bragged about blowing fat guys off bikes.

They haven't have they? So i guess there aren't millions like him.

Quote
The real criminals are the guys who armed Turner and sent him to Iraq. Who started the war in the first place.  That's who oughtta be in the dock.

Except they aren't the one who shot the fat guy off his bike. Turner did. You seem to be obsessed with spreading blame.

Quote
So it comforts me to think, in some karmic way, every time some GI's head gets blown off in Baghdad, one more American war crime has been avenged.

And will you also think it karmic when the GI's avenge their lost brothers in arms come the next patrol?



« Last Edit: May 31, 2008, 03:17:57 AM by BT »

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
<<Sure [Turner is the problem.]

<<He wouldn't be newsworthy if every other soldier who has served in Iraq bragged about blowing fat guys off bikes.

<<They haven't have they? So i guess there aren't millions like him.>>

I think you are confusing "newsworthiness" with "problems."  Turner is definitely newsworthy, not because he, personally, is a big problem (he's about one-millionth of the big problem) but because he is living proof of the existence of a problem that many Americans still deny.  "Show us the evidence," they say.  Turner is newsworthy because he IS the evidence, he's Exhibit A.

Where you got confused is obvious:  Turner is newsworthy, therefore he's the problem.  Think of it this way:  Lindsay Lohan's tits are, in some circumstances, newsworthy.  They are never, in any circumstances, a problem.

<<Except they [those who started this war] aren't the one who shot the fat guy off his bike. Turner did. You seem to be obsessed with spreading blame.>>

I'm sure glad that guys like you weren't the ones who organized the Nuremburg War Crimes Tribunals.  We would have seen endless details of hapless schleppers who pulled the trigger on one Jewish toddler, two Jewish schoolteachers, a husband, wife and kids, and meantime the guys who masterminded the entire Holocaust and war from their desks and offices would be happily scarfing down bratwurst and beer and playing with toy soldiers back in whatever was left of their homes and backyards.  Yeah, that seems right to me.  How it really shoulda bin.  Tell ya what - - you continue to "obsess" on the insignificant Mr. Turner personally, and I will stay focused on the real criminals here.

<<Quote
<<So it comforts me to think, in some karmic way, every time some GI's head gets blown off in Baghdad, one more American war crime has been avenged.

<<And will you also think it karmic when the GI's avenge their lost brothers in arms come the next patrol?>>

Yeah, that's karmic too.  But I know they too (the next round of murdered Iraqis) will be avenged in the near future in their turn.  The source of the evil is in Washington.  When that source is switched, the cycle will start to lose energy in Iraq.  When the ultimate karmic payback arrives, in the form of economic collapse, it should be far-reaching and complete.  The three trillion dollar spree shouldn't take too long to show its effects.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
"Show us the evidence," they say.  Turner is newsworthy because he IS the evidence, he's Exhibit A."



[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

He isn't only exibit A , he is most of the evidence.

Should we assume that there are many like him?

Why?

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
He isn't only exibit A , he is most of the evidence.

Should we assume that there are many like him?

Why?

==================================

Watch the whole thing.  It wasn't just Turner, his buddy also made the same kind of kill.  The other guys in the platoon seem to have acquiesced.  The unit commander was satisfied with the kill, but obviously it wasn't sadistic enough for him, so he offers four days' leave to the first guy to kill by stabbing to death.  Nowhere is there any sign of Army disapproval, let alone prosecution.  When Turner was talking about embedded reporters, saying the troops act completely differently with reporters around, you could see another war criminal nodding his head in agreement.

What is there about Turner's squad that would indicate it is markedly different from the rest of the army or special in any way?  Nothing.  He's a pretty run of the mill type fellow.

My experience with people, my acquired knowledge of human nature, my plain common sense and instincts tell me that there is nothing remarkable about Turner, he's probably an all-too-typical recruit, and there's nothing special or out-of-the ordinary about him or anyone else in his unit.  If he WAS in a bunch of psychos or sickos, he'd probably transfer out.

So it's just my judgment that Turner is typical, he is representative of an ordinary American soldier today and his unit is a typical unit and therefore there must be plenty of guys like this in the Army.  When there's no press around, they'll act pretty much the same.  And nobody in the higher echelons gives a shit.  I admit it - - I could be wrong.  Maybe Turner really is some one-of-a-kind freak, somebody very exceptional, very special, unique even but - - I don't think so.  This is just an exchange of opinions, right? - - my opinion, for what it's worth, is that there are plenty of Turners in the U.S. military and that there is nothing at all special or unusual in what he did.

Cynthia

  • Guest
Michael or BT did I miss something?
Thats it?
Come on Michael please show any examples in history where war wasn't "hell".
Showing a few snippets of US Soldiers in Iraq and implying it paints the whole picture is absurd.
It would be like if I posted the pictures below and (to borrow some words from you) said
"aren't we wonderful?"
















good ONE, CHRISTIANS!

Nice Shots. It's nice to know that there are two sides of the story.

There is still a horrific thing going on in Iraq...a war that should not have been called.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Quote
a war that should not have been called.

But it was.

And Michael seems the way to end it is to slur all soldiers as if they were Turner clones.

The evidence doesn't back him up, but that doesn't matter.


Cynthia

  • Guest
Quote
a war that should not have been called.

But it was.

And Michael seems the way to end it is to slur all soldiers as if they were Turner clones.

The evidence doesn't back him up, but that doesn't matter.



TRue, MTee is a bad boy. He doesn't play with compassionate marbles, This is so true.
The evidence can win the argument all day long as far as winning "points" is concerned, but the war should never have been called. I believe we should have called for the war against the terrorists who were directly responsible for  9-11. Too much too soon...and now where are we, really? No way to go back, and I do applaud the work done by the American soldiers in Iraq, as well as the Iraqi soldiers. I am sure there will be a good outcome in the end, but time and money will have to be "over spent" to see a sweet end...if we ever see a sweet end to this war on terrorism brought to us by Bush.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0

<<And Michael seems the way to end it is to slur all soldiers as if they were Turner clones.>>

Michael's way to end it is to put up a candidate who promises to end it NOW , in two months, by pulling all troops out and abandoning all bases - - not some candy-ass anti-war fake who wants sixteen months or 14 months and talks only about evacuating "combat troops" and all the rest of his phony bullshit.

Michael thinks people who support the war should know about Turner, his buddy and his unit commander, who shoot civilians in cold blood for target practice and promise 4 days leave to the first guy who STABS someone to death. 

Michael is not fooled by phony propaganda pictures of GIs cuddling kids or the totally asinine assertion that a few such phony cuddles counterbalance the crimes and atrocities of Turner and his pals.

Michael is not stupid enough to believe that in finding Turner, his buddy and his unit commander,we have identified the source of all the evil in the U.S. occupation forces, and that these guys are unique, one-of-a-kind monsters found only in that one little pocket of military depravity while all the rest of the US forces spend all their time in Iraq finding teddy bears for orphans and snuggling up to cute little kids.

Turner seems like a fairly typical U.S. Marine and his story doesn't seem much different from other stories of U.S. atrocities I have heard.  I don't think he's the only one, and I don't think he's a particularly rare breed.  In only one way is he unusual - - he's willing to 'fess up to what he did, at least for the moment, and at least without charges pending.  In that, also, I don't find his conduct unheard-of or bizarre.

I believe that for each Marine compelled to admit to his crimes and expose them, many more will cover up.  I believe the military encourages cover-ups - - it makes sense, no organization wants bad PR.

I think there are lots of Turners in the USMC, lots of crimes and atrocities committed by them in Iraq, most of them covered up permanently, some exposed exactly in the way we have seen Turner expose his.  Just like the rape and murder of the 14-year-old Abeer, for which two GI's were tortured and murdered in Iraq and for which Stephen Green is now going to stand trial in a US criminal court. That crime also was exposed through the bad conscience of a very limited number of eye-witnesses, and it took the torture and murder of two of their comrades to shake them up enough to admit to investigators what had happened.

There are some apologists for war crimes and atrocities, and for this army of criminals - - people who, no matter how many times evidence of the crimes surface, against all odds - - will say on each occasion, "isolated event," and ridicule any suggestion that the problem is systemic, institutional or widespread.  "Where is the evidence?" they ask, as if totally ignorant of the extent to which the participants and their superiors would go to make all the evidence disappear, and of the difficulties which people not in the military would experience in ferreting it out.  Where is the evidence?

It's all around you - - in the coverups attempted, in the crimes that nevertheless surface, in the numbers of charges brought, charges dismissed without going to trial, charges reduced, sentences imposed, sentences reduced, and in the evidence of the perps themselves, the brazenness of the crimes, the complicity of the superiors - - how much evidence do you really need?  It's more than enough evidence for me, and it should be more than enough for anyone else who isn't a damn fool.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Quote
"Turner seems like a fairly typical U.S. Marine ..."


Well yes , to you he seems normal , to me he seems atipical .

This seeming needs to be settled by a real count , if that is possible .

I have known a lot of Marines , decency is very common with them.