Author Topic: I guess the evidence is in.  (Read 39855 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #90 on: November 06, 2006, 05:53:28 PM »
<<For example , what practical benefit did Osama Bin Laden get from any of his attacks on America?>>

Thank you for proving my point.  Osama bin Laden is religious fanatics.  By definition religious fanatics look for their reward in heaven.  They do not expect to reap practical benefits from their actions on earth - - they fear God and try to perform His will on earth in order to avoid divine punishment.  THAT'S the only benefit Osama expects.

Your mistake - - and it's a HUGE mistake - - is failing to differentiate between the two men.  "They're both Arabs and one is illogical so both must be illogical."  Consciously or not, that's racist thinking.  I don't blame you personally, I know there is only so much you can do to escape from background childhood conditioning, but nevertheless, the thinking is racist, illogical and unsupportable.  There is no reason in the world to expect Saddam to have acted as Osama would have.  They were mortal enemies of one another.

Michael Tee

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #91 on: November 06, 2006, 07:02:33 PM »
from Ami:

<<"In early December 2002, Iraq filed a 12,000-page weapons declaration with the UN. After reviewing the document, U.N. weapons inspectors, the U.S., France, United Kingdom and other countries thought that this declaration failed to account for all of Iraq's chemical and biological agents.">>

Well, that's kind of selective.  We know who didn't think that Iraq had accounted for "all" of its chemical and biological agents - - the two invaders themselves, plus France (suddenly regaining credibility in the eyes of conservatives) and "other countries."  (probably the same stooges that the U.S. blackmailed, bribed, inveigled and ortherwise schmeered or coerced into their criminal venture)   What we don't know from the article is which countries felt that Iraq had accounted for all or most of its chemical and biological weapons.  (BTW, it's kind of funny that whereas Iraq had to account for all of its chemical weapons, the U.S.A. was perfectly free to use its WP bombs and shells on the civilian population of Falluja.  Go figure.)

That's the problem with using Wikipedia as a source in partisan matters.  The stuff is heavily edited and re-edited by partisans, sometimes going through a couple dozen re-edits, so you're not really sure whose spin you're picking up when you dip into it.

<<"On January 27, 2003, UN inspectors reported that Iraq had cooperated on a practical level with monitors, but had not demonstrated a 'genuine acceptance' of the need to disarm. >>

Somebody no doubt can explain that little brain fart.

<<Inspector Hans Blix said that after the empty chemical warheads were found on the 16th, Iraq produced papers documenting the destruction of many other similar warheads, which had not been disclosed before. This still left thousands of warheads unaccounted for however. >>

Blix said there were thousands of warheads unaccounted for?  I don't think so.  In whose opinion were the number of unaccounted warheads in the thousands?  The article doesn't say.  My recollection of the editorial comment of the day was that every single warhead had not been accounted for, but the number of unaccounted for warheads was small and consistent with what you would expect could be "lost" through record-keeper errors over so long a period of time. 

<<Inspectors also reported the discovery of over 3,000 pages of weapons program documents in the home of an Iraqi citizen . . . >>

Well, that's a crock as stated.  3,000 pages of what, exactly?  Outdated phone numbers of weapons program technicians?  Drawings and specs for equipment that was never purchased?   Who was the Iraqi citizen?  A scientist who took the stuff home to work on?  An employee who stole whatever he could lay his hands on for fun and profit?  A retired guy who had the stuff for years and never got around to returning it or shredding it?

<< . . . suggesting an attempt to 'hide' them from inspectors >>

Yeah.  Or a plant by an American agent on the inspection team.  Or a slip in the Iraqi document-control procedures.

<< . . . and apparently contradicting Iraq's earlier claim that it had no further documents to provide.>>

Yeah, Jeeziz, like it's totally unheard of for a taxpayer, let's say, to turn over all his documents in a file to the IRS and then later discover more documents that weren't included in the original handover.  Like nothing ever gets misplaced or misfiled.  VERY suspicious.  I guess if you ever get audited by the IRS and find more documents that weren't turned over originally, that's proof positive that you were hiding something and the IRS should just stop their investigation and sock you with the maximum penalty because your guilt has been established beyond dispute.

 Can't believe (a) how the administration's defenders turn to the most trivial bullshit in support of their asinine propositions and (b) how many morons they can find to take such crap seriously.  A sucker is born every minute.

<<In addition, by the 28th, a total of 16 Iraqi scientists had refused to be interviewed by inspectors. The United States reports that sources have told them that Saddam has ordered the death of any scientist that speaks with inspectors in private. Iraq insists that they are not putting pressure on the scientists.">>

Again, you'd have to be pretty naive not to recognize what's going on here.  A scientist would have to be nuts to speak to a UN inspector.  They can't guarantee his life and if Saddam thinks anybody fucked up, that is the end of a life.  The only smart thing for any scientist to do is to clam up.  That way, no matter what happens, he can say "Boss I never met with them, never talked to them.  Couldn't a bin anything I said."
Of course Iraq says it puts no pressure on scientists.  Doesn't have to - - the pressure comes from the scientists.  What the inspectors were dealing with was the normal quotient of fear that comes with the territory in any Middle Eastern dictatorship.

<<The United States reports that sources have told them that Saddam has ordered the death of any scientist that speaks with inspectors in private>>

Yeah, that's rich.  Their sources also told them that Iraq was buying yellowcake from Niger, that Saddam was behind the WTC attacks, that Saddam's WMD could be launched in 45 minutes, that the U.S. Army would be welcomed as liberators, that the boys would be home by Christmas, that they would create a new democratic Middle East through the shining example of Iraq, blah blah blah.  Their sources told them a lot of things.  Basically, whatever they need or want their sources to tell them, they advise the sources what they want to hear and the sources tell them.  This is NOT one of the more impressive arguments in the neocon arsenal.

Amianthus

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #92 on: November 06, 2006, 07:07:15 PM »
That's the problem with using Wikipedia as a source in partisan matters.  The stuff is heavily edited and re-edited by partisans, sometimes going through a couple dozen re-edits, so you're not really sure whose spin you're picking up when you dip into it.

That's rich, considering you have used Wikipedia as a source several times for your partisan matters.

Regardless, did you check out the references in the article before responding?



Didn't think so...
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #93 on: November 06, 2006, 07:29:21 PM »
<<That's rich, considering you have used Wikipedia as a source several times for your partisan matters.>>

I didn't tell you, "It's Wikipedia therefore it's bullshit.  End of story."  I didn't say Wikipedia is 100% crap.  I said it deserves caution, AND THEN I showed you exactly where the article was vague and misleading.  I still use Wikipedia on occasion, it's very handy.

If you feel that my quoting a Wikipedia article was somehow misleading, then point to the part of the article that you object to and show what's wrong with it - - exactly as I did with the Wikipedia article that you quoted.  If you can't do it, then that particular article was as good as source as any other.

<<Regardless, did you check out the references in the article before responding?>>

No, I didn't have the time.  The article you quoted from was, in the parts that I indicated, misleading and/or useless.  That was apparent from the text itself.  If you had better sources, it was up to you to have quoted from them, or even to have used them instead of the Wikipedia text.  It certainly isn't up to me to perfect your arguments.  YOU were the one who chose to rely on Wikipedia rather than go to the sources.  Now you want to blame me for your choice of supporting material.  Sorry, wrong number.

Amianthus

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #94 on: November 06, 2006, 07:33:46 PM »
No, I didn't have the time.

Oh well.

I will claim, as you have claimed before, "I'm obviously right." I think you even said something like "if you think what I say is wrong, get off your lazy ass and look up your own sources."

Maybe if someone other than you, Knute, or XO ask me for sources, I'll provide them.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #95 on: November 06, 2006, 07:44:56 PM »
<<For example , what practical benefit did Osama Bin Laden get from any of his attacks on America?>>

Thank you for proving my point.  Osama bin Laden is religious fanatics.  By definition religious fanatics look for their reward in heaven.  They do not expect to reap practical benefits from their actions on earth - - they fear God and try to perform His will on earth in order to avoid divine punishment.  THAT'S the only benefit Osama expects.

Your mistake - - and it's a HUGE mistake - - is failing to differentiate between the two men.  "They're both Arabs and one is illogical so both must be illogical."  Consciously or not, that's racist thinking.  I don't blame you personally, I know there is only so much you can do to escape from background childhood conditioning, but nevertheless, the thinking is racist, illogical and unsupportable.  There is no reason in the world to expect Saddam to have acted as Osama would have.  They were mortal enemies of one another.

You oversimplify.

They were both leaders of Arabs and enemys of the USA.

They had a lot more in common than just being Arabs , They share this with the Voice of Shaggy on "Scooby Do" but nothing elese.

With each other they share a rivalry over who is Americas worse enemy.

The_Professor

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #96 on: November 06, 2006, 07:51:46 PM »
A difference may lie in the fact that one looks at this from a secular viewpoint, whereas the other views it from a religious one? The latter may be potentially more dangerous to the U.S. as those who are passioned tend to defeat those whom are not, everything else being the same.

Michael Tee

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #97 on: November 06, 2006, 08:01:16 PM »
<<Maybe if someone other than you, Knute, or XO ask me for sources, I'll provide them.>>

Or maybe if you do it right the first time, you won't have to bitch that your reader didn't go beyond your first sources to your second sources.  Sheeesh.

Michael Tee

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #98 on: November 06, 2006, 08:10:05 PM »
<<They were both leaders of Arabs and enemys of the USA.>>

Yeah.  And that's about ALL they had in common.

<<They had a lot more in common than just being Arabs >>

Yeah, I know.  You just said they were Arabs AND enemies of the USA.  I guess in your mind that means they're not only identical twins but soulmates.

<<They share this with the Voice of Shaggy on "Scooby Do" but nothing elese.>>

Uhh, you lost me there, plane.  Not that I'm totally unfamiliar with Scooby Doo, but . . .

<<With each other they share a rivalry over who is Americas worse enemy . . . >>

Well, you're speculating there, plane.  Osama's an enemy of ALL infidels and that INCLUDES Saddam, the skirt-chasing booze-hound.  Even if it were true, there'd certainly be a lot of room left for intellectual and behavioural divergence between them.  It's still extremely foolish to think that Osama and Saddam think alike.  You've provided the flimsiest of similarities, virtually nothing but your racist thought (they're both Arabs) to back it up.

Amianthus

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #99 on: November 06, 2006, 08:28:38 PM »
Or maybe if you do it right the first time, you won't have to bitch that your reader didn't go beyond your first sources to your second sources.  Sheeesh.

I'll remember that the next time you do the same thing.

Geez, you sure have a lot of complaints that you're guilty of doing as well.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #100 on: November 06, 2006, 09:02:48 PM »
<<I'll remember that the next time you do the same thing.

<<Geez, you sure have a lot of complaints that you're guilty of doing as well.>>

When did I tell you I was perfect?

Amianthus

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #101 on: November 06, 2006, 09:07:02 PM »
When did I tell you I was perfect?

Your viewpoint on your own perfection was a logical determination from your posts on this board.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #102 on: November 06, 2006, 09:10:48 PM »
<<Your viewpoint on your own perfection was a logical determination from your posts on this board.>>

Shit.  That was supposed to be my own guilty secret.

Plane

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #103 on: November 06, 2006, 09:52:37 PM »
Thank you for proving my point.  Osama bin Laden is religious fanatics.  By definition religious fanatics look for their reward in heaven.  They do not expect to reap practical benefits from their actions on earth - - they fear God and try to perform His will on earth in order to avoid divine punishment.  THAT'S the only benefit Osama expects.

[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]


You are not reading Osamas own words , he wants to establish a big empire on Earth , a Caphilate.

Saddam was less religious but the two of them were just useing diffrent means to the same end.

Plane

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #104 on: November 06, 2006, 09:59:17 PM »
<<They were both leaders of Arabs and enemys of the USA.>>

Yeah.  And that's about ALL they had in common.

<<They had a lot more in common than just being Arabs >>

Yeah, I know.  You just said they were Arabs AND enemies of the USA.  I guess in your mind that means they're not only identical twins but soulmates.

<<They share this with the Voice of Shaggy on "Scooby Do" but nothing elese.>>

Uhh, you lost me there, plane.  Not that I'm totally unfamiliar with Scooby Doo, but . . .

<<With each other they share a rivalry over who is Americas worse enemy . . . >>

Well, you're speculating there, plane.  Osama's an enemy of ALL infidels and that INCLUDES Saddam, the skirt-chasing booze-hound.  Even if it were true, there'd certainly be a lot of room left for intellectual and behavioural divergence between them.  It's still extremely foolish to think that Osama and Saddam think alike.  You've provided the flimsiest of similarities, virtually nothing but your racist thought (they're both Arabs) to back it up.

If you were Saddam, and your life and the life of your country depended on it, you'd have basically two choices:

1.  Give the terrorists what they want and hope that the U.S. would never find out about it.  That's a pretty big gamble to take.  What's in it for Saddam?  That one or two nukes will go off in the U.S.A.?  WTF good does that do him, really?  Where's the benefit that justifies the risk of anihilation?  Considering that most of these wackos consider HIM an infidel because he's a socialist, and is the head of a socialist Arab state where women run around in miniskirts with nothing on top of their heads and every fucking nightclub serves alcohol, what on earth would he gain by giving them nukes and trusting to their gratitude and their discretion?  On the one hand, nuclear anihilation and on the other, a few thousand more fucking infidels dying ten thousand miles away?  He'd really have to be nuts to take that gamble.

2.  Second choice:  Just say no.  Saddam was not afraid of terrorists or Islamic fundamentalists.  On any given day there were probably dozens of them if not hundreds in his torture chambers, getting "Iraqi manicures" (having their fingernails pulled out) or much, much worse.  Why on earth he would want to give any of them their own nukes is a mystery to any intelligent observer of the Middle Eastern scene.



So you can speculate better than I can?

Kasey Kasem is the Voice of Scooby Doo and a radio personality also , he is an arab with nothing in common to Saddam Husein.


Much more to the point , Osama declared war on the USA and proceded to build a nation for himself .

Saddam was diffrent is what important respect?