Author Topic: McSame - War Hero or Collaborator?  (Read 2453 times)

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Michael Tee

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McSame - War Hero or Collaborator?
« on: June 14, 2008, 12:19:50 PM »
http://www.counterpunch.com/

The Counterpunch article with quotes from fellow POWs and families.  McSame provided technical  info that enabled the North Vietnamese to shoot down 60 U.S. planes.  This article is potential dynamite.  They won't even have to Swift-Boat this guy because it's all true!  Due to his father and grandfather being admirals, McSame was actually treated for his initial injuried by Soviet doctors in a hospital reserved for Vietnamese officers.  He was interviewed by a Cuban psychiatrist there who diagnosed him as a psychopath,  Which kind of fits in with his calling his second wife a "cunt" to her face in front of reporters.  This story also explains in some detail how the "war hero" myth was carefully built up and just where it's vulnerable.

Plane

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Re: McSame - War Hero or Collaborator?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2008, 09:15:28 PM »
That article is precious.

Each lie is much more liable to help McCain than harm him.

Did the Grunts in Vietnam hate the "flyboys , Glory boys"?

I don't think so , certainly not the ones that benefited from close air support.


Did McCain operate from a safe and comfortable location?

There is a film of McCain crawling across his burning Aircraft to escape the huge fire that the USS Forestall suffered in the Gulf of Tonkin.

Did the Vietrnameese save his life? I didn't hear before about the swimmer who dragged him ashore ,could be true, I guess it was a diffrent Vietnameese that Bayoneted him.

Does this article admit that no medical attention was given to POWs ? That McCain was an exception and got qualified care would prove that they did this from spite , but I doubt that his care was all that qualified he had a broken arm and it was not professionally splinted , how competant does medical care have to be for that?

Most of the PoWs McCain was interred with were pilots or aircrew , most of them had the tipical treatment of haveing their ankles tied to their neck , I don't think that McCain is the only one to report the presence of "Fidel" and I don't expect this dog to hunt.

Plane

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Plane

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Michael Tee

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Re: McSame - War Hero or Collaborator?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2008, 01:53:10 AM »
<<Did the Grunts in Vietnam hate the "flyboys , Glory boys"?
<<I don't think so , certainly not the ones that benefited from close air support.>>

Nobody had close air support in WWII?  I suspect that most grunts did not hate fliers enough to shoot at them, but there probably was a minority in both wars who did.  I don't think the anecdote of WWII G.I.s shooting at their own planes was relevant to the story in any major way, so it's not worth debating.  In the campaign against McSame's fake "war hero" status, that little anecdote probably won't ever be used.  Because it's just totally unnecessary.


<<Did McCain operate from a safe and comfortable location?

<<There is a film of McCain crawling across his burning Aircraft to escape the huge fire that the USS Forestall suffered in the Gulf of Tonkin.>>

The guy had a fire where he lived.  BFD.  Every day before and after the fire, he lived in a safe and comfortable location compared to the living accommodations of the grunts.

<<Did the Vietrnameese save his life? I didn't hear before about the swimmer who dragged him ashore ,could be true, I guess it was a diffrent Vietnameese that Bayoneted him.>>

I've read it more than once before and it just makes his professed hatred of the Vietnamese all that much more despicable and irrational.  Especially when one considers the agony of the Vietnamese under a rain of U.S. napalm, the attitude of the Vietnamese who bayoneted him (if it ever in fact happened) is a lot more understandable than the attitude of the Vietnamese who saved his miserable war-criminal ass.

<<Does this article admit that no medical attention was given to POWs ? >>

So what if it does?  The issue is the fake claim that McSame lays to being a "war hero."  That can't be affected one way or the other with how the Vietnamese treated war criminals like McSame.

<<That McCain was an exception and got qualified care would prove that they did this from spite . . . >>

Bullshit.  It would prove that he was rewarded for his collaboration, obviously.

<< . . .  but I doubt that his care was all that qualified he had a broken arm and it was not professionally splinted , how competant does medical care have to be for that?>>

His arm looks OK to me.  Wonder if he'd like it examined by a panel of independent medical experts to see just how bad his care was.  Our friend's broken wrist was improperly splinted right here in a Toronto hospital and it's slightly angled permanently.  If McSame feels his medical care was sub-par, why doesn't he sue his Vietnamese doctors?  Or maybe he'd have to present some objective medical proof of his "injuries" that wouldn't jibe with his fake claims.

<<Most of the PoWs McCain was interred with were pilots or aircrew , most of them had the tipical treatment of haveing their ankles tied to their neck , I don't think that McCain is the only one to report the presence of "Fidel" and I don't expect this dog to hunt.>>

Next thing you'll be telling us that "most of the POWs McSame was interned with" also made propaganda broadcasts for the Vietnamese and gave up valuable inside information on attack patterns, altitudes, etc., as the article states.  As this stuff comes out on the internet over the course of the campaign, the MSM will have to pick it up sooner or later to save their own credibility, and it'll have to make a big difference.  McSame had a pretty easy ride as a "war hero" so far, but that ride's coming to an end real soon.

BT

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Re: McSame - War Hero or Collaborator?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2008, 02:05:58 AM »
Mikey

You are already on record as saying you intend to smear McCain whether the charges are true or not.

Is this just another example?

Plane

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Re: McSame - War Hero or Collaborator?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2008, 05:27:29 AM »
<<That McCain was an exception and got qualified care would prove that they did this from spite . . . >>

"Bullshit.  It would prove that he was rewarded for his collaboration, obviously."

[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]


No, it really does prove that they had Doctors availible and that they withheld the care from the POWs. This is not an article that mekes the Vietnameese look nice.


[][][][][][][][][][][]

<<Did the Grunts in Vietnam hate the "flyboys , Glory boys"?
<<I don't think so , certainly not the ones that benefited from close air support.>>

"Nobody had close air support in WWII?  I suspect that most grunts did not hate fliers enough to shoot at them, but there probably was a minority in both wars who did.  I don't think the anecdote of WWII G.I.s shooting at their own planes was relevant to the story in any major way, so it's not worth debating.  In the campaign against McSame's fake "war hero" status, that little anecdote probably won't ever be used.  Because it's just totally unnecessary."

[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
All of these anecdotes are low in quality and unecessacery for any purpose but a smear.

Still ,it is good to see the opposition produceing their best attack , and it turning out to be such a farce.

sirs

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Re: McSame - War Hero or Collaborator?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2008, 10:27:09 AM »
 :D
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: McSame - War Hero or Collaborator?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2008, 06:23:58 PM »
<<Mikey

<<You are already on record as saying you intend to smear McCain whether the charges are true or not.>>

Nice try, BT.  But unfortunately I'm not on record as saying that at all.  YOU are on record as altering my posts at will, though, so please don't spare the effort now.

<<Is this just another example?>>

Yeah, of your editorial "creativity."

Probably what I said was that these charges are going to be fired like buckshot at McSame and while the Swift Boat experience proves it doesn't matter whether the charges are true or not, they'll still have the desired effect.  In McSame's case, it's obvious from the article I linked to that these charges are most likely all true.

Michael Tee

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Re: McSame - War Hero or Collaborator?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2008, 06:35:40 PM »
<<No, it really does prove that they had Doctors availible and that they withheld the care from the POWs. This is not an article that mekes the Vietnameese look nice.>>

With all due respect, plane, I believe you are missing the main point of the article and going off on a tangent that has nothing to do with McSame and his collaboration with the enemy.  (Whether or not the Vietnamese are "nice.") 

Even granting your point and conceding for the sake of argument that the Vietnamese were not "nice," but in fact real bastards and provided no medical attention for injured prisoners in general, this would be relevant to the issue of whether the Vietnamese were good guys or bad guys, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the more pertinent issues that (a) McSame received special treatment from the "enemy," including  treatment of his wounds in a North Vietnamese hospital reserved for Vietnamese officers, by Soviet doctors and (b) that McSame in return for his pampering, made propaganda broadcasts for Vietnam in which he admitted to committing war crimes against the Vietnamese people and also gave technical information as to altitudes, flight paths etc. (all as specified in more detail in the article I linked to) which enabled the "enemy" to shoot down 60 U.S. planes.

<<All of these anecdotes [about GIs hating USAF and Navy pilots and shooting at their planes] are low in quality . . . >>

I agree with you completely.  They don't even belong in the article.  Point taken, and in future MoveOn.org material, I don't think they'll even be mentioned.  Thank you.

<< . . . and unecessacery for any purpose but a smear.>>

There I have to disagree.  I believe they were inserted by the author to build his own credibility, show him as really knowledgeable about war, knowing stuff that nobody else does, etc.

BT

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Re: McSame - War Hero or Collaborator?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2008, 07:25:06 PM »
Quote
Probably what I said was that these charges are going to be fired like buckshot at McSame and while the Swift Boat experience proves it doesn't matter whether the charges are true or not, they'll still have the desired effect.  In McSame's case, it's obvious from the article I linked to that these charges are most likely all true.

I believe you were scripting an ad campaign in your head dealing with the Keating 5. I paraphrase but you basically said the truth didn't matter because Americans are too stupid to know the difference. Looks like you found another author who feels the same way.


BT

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Re: McSame - War Hero or Collaborator?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2008, 07:26:17 PM »
Quote
YOU are on record as altering my posts at will, though, so please don't spare the effort now.

Another lie from Mikey.


Michael Tee

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Re: McSame - War Hero or Collaborator?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2008, 07:31:43 PM »
<<I paraphrase but you basically said the truth didn't matter because Americans are too stupid to know the difference. >>

That's one helluva big difference from what you originally claimed I said.  Here's EXACTLY what you claimed I said (and I didn't change a word of it!) - -

<<Mikey

<<You are already on record as saying you intend to smear McCain whether the charges are true or not.>>

BT

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Re: McSame - War Hero or Collaborator?
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2008, 07:50:16 PM »
Those two statements are compatible. I suggest you reread your statements in the Keating thread.

Michael Tee

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Re: McSame - War Hero or Collaborator?
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2008, 08:03:55 PM »
<<Those two statements are compatible.>>

That is absolutely ridiculous.  You implied that I admitted I would knowingly post false material about McSame when in fact I said no such thing.  Compatible, my ass.