Author Topic: IRAQ: "The largest reenlistment ceremony ever held"!  (Read 22613 times)

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Plane

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Re: IRAQ: "The largest reenlistment ceremony ever held"!
« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2008, 02:00:22 AM »
<<In a war, you want someone who's willing to kill the enemy, and preferably one that will come home to tell the tale. Highly trained will kill more of the enemy than poorly trained and willing to die.>>

"More" and "less" killed don't mean all that much in a war of attrition, where both sides can draw enough new blood to replace what's been lost, unless there is some huge exponential gap in the kill rates; the loss of untrained, three-for-a-dollar warriors on the one side won't matter as long as they are inflicting unsustainable (over the long term) losses on an enemy where the lives lost times the dollar value of those lives constitutes an exponentially larger loss for the rich man's side of the board.

I'm just guessing that a WWII vintage Luger Parabellum would probably fetch about $2500 to $7500 depending on condition and a prototype Walther PPK about $2000 to $5,000.

No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.
George S. Patton



 Al Queda is welcome to die off at any rate they think appropriate. Or they could stop anytime.





[][][][][][][][]

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=56

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=55

The Soviet design burp gun...
http://www.gunslot.com/guns/ppsh-41


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: IRAQ: "The largest reenlistment ceremony ever held"!
« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2008, 10:36:26 AM »
No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.
George S. Patton

=====================
It has always seemed to me that Patton was suggesting that he thought of all the soldiers he commanded, as well as those he fought, as "dumb bastards".

I wonder if he thought of himself as a "dumb bastard", and whether this implies that by refusing to enlist or bucking the draft, one was a less dumb bastard, or perhaps not a bastard at all.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: IRAQ: "The largest reenlistment ceremony ever held"!
« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2008, 11:16:45 AM »
I wonder if he thought of himself as a "dumb bastard", and whether this implies that by refusing to enlist or bucking the draft, one was a less dumb bastard, or perhaps not a bastard at all.

He referred to himself as a "bastard" and a "son of a bitch" often enough.

And no, it does not imply that.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: IRAQ: "The largest reenlistment ceremony ever held"!
« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2008, 11:23:56 AM »
No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.
George S. Patton

=====================
It has always seemed to me that Patton was suggesting that he thought of all the soldiers he commanded, as well as those he fought, as "dumb bastards".

I wonder if he thought of himself as a "dumb bastard", and whether this implies that by refusing to enlist or bucking the draft, one was a less dumb bastard, or perhaps not a bastard at all.



I don't beleive you have captured Pattons attitude . Being the Bastard would not have bothered him , but he did not do dumb.

Quote
If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.
George S. Patton

If we take the generally accepted definition of bravery as a quality which knows no fear, I have never seen a brave man. All men are frightened. The more intelligent they are, the more they are frightened.
George S. Patton

It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived.
George S. Patton

Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men. It is the spirit of men who follow and of the man who leads that gains the victory.
George S. Patton

Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
George S. Patton

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/george_s_patton.html &nbsp;

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: IRAQ: "The largest reenlistment ceremony ever held"!
« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2008, 11:59:09 AM »

I don't beleive you have captured Pattons attitude . Being the Bastard would not have bothered him , but he did not do dumb.

==================

No one ever seems to accept the theory that one is dumb.
Patton was a demonstrably a strategic genius, and he also had superior resources to the Germans, at least in North Africa.


I was referring to the phrase "the other dumb bastard".
This implies a duplicity of dumb bastards: the enemy bastard and our dumb bastard.

It suggests that Patton regarded both as "dumb bastards". Perhaps the intelligence was to be supplied by their leadership.

If he included all soldiers in the category of "dumb bastards", then that suggests that he felt he was also a "dumb bastard", as he certainly would have included himself in the category of "soldier".

The other possibility is that he considered there to be two categories:  (a) the category of "dumb bastards", which would include the soldiers, or at least the enlisted men, and (b) a second category, which would include officers, or perhaps just George Patton.

I do not think that the issue of parantage is of importance here, as bastards are generally the equals to those of legitimate parentage,  once allowances for socio-economic status are made.
 


"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: IRAQ: "The largest reenlistment ceremony ever held"!
« Reply #65 on: July 14, 2008, 07:47:27 AM »
plane seems to know quite a bit about Patton, so I was wondering what he made of his slap in the face to a shell-shocked soldier in a hospital tent?  Does it indicate a basic respect for all his men or a basic contempt for such of them as broke under fire?  And if the latter, does plane know (I certainly don't) what was the longest period of time that the general had ever personally served on the front lines under enemy fire?

I don't want to take away anything from Patton's tactical and strategic skills (I loved the scene in the movie where he arrives at the head of the traffic jam, takes a quick look around, shoots the donkey, gets the dead animal and its cart pushed off the road and calls the sergeant stuck with the problem a "jackass," all in a few seconds) however it seems to me this is a whole nuther issue.

Plane

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Re: IRAQ: "The largest reenlistment ceremony ever held"!
« Reply #66 on: July 14, 2008, 08:39:25 AM »
plane seems to know quite a bit about Patton, so I was wondering what he made of his slap in the face to a shell-shocked soldier in a hospital tent?  Does it indicate a basic respect for all his men or a basic contempt for such of them as broke under fire?  And if the latter, does plane know (I certainly don't) what was the longest period of time that the general had ever personally served on the front lines under enemy fire?

I don't want to take away anything from Patton's tactical and strategic skills (I loved the scene in the movie where he arrives at the head of the traffic jam, takes a quick look around, shoots the donkey, gets the dead animal and its cart pushed off the road and calls the sergeant stuck with the problem a "jackass," all in a few seconds) however it seems to me this is a whole nuther issue.

In the conduct of WWII there was one thing that Patton made public apology for and one thing he admitted genuinely regretting .

He apologised for the slap on the shell shocked soldier , I think he did not really regret it, but he seriously needed to make the apology for the sake of public opinion . I dont think the public agreed with Patton that the soldier would possibly have benefited from the treatment.

Slapping that guy was a last straw sort of event , it contributed to Eisenhours decision to put Patton in command of a phantom army , a ruse to misdirect German intelligence , also a weay to make Patton eat crow for months.

Patton did well as a decoy thus reestablishing trust and Eisenhour put Patton in command again on the push thru France.

Patton sent a large raiding party twards a POW camp where an In law of his was being held, this raid did not go well and Patton priviately expressed regret for it.

Patton was outspoken on the subject of Communism at an inoppurtune time this has fueled conspiracy theroys concerning hid death ever since.

BT

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Re: IRAQ: "The largest reenlistment ceremony ever held"!
« Reply #67 on: July 14, 2008, 08:53:18 AM »
Quote
And if the latter, does plane know (I certainly don't) what was the longest period of time that the general had ever personally served on the front lines under enemy fire?

Patton was shot by machine gun fire at the Battle of Saint-Mihiel during wwi and received a purple heart.


Michael Tee

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Re: IRAQ: "The largest reenlistment ceremony ever held"!
« Reply #68 on: July 14, 2008, 09:14:40 AM »
OK long enough to have been shot, which gives him some credibility, but how long in the line altogether?  Just curious, because I was thinking of Farley Mowat's memoir And No Birds Sang, which indicated that the men serving at the front seem to get through their baptism of fire alright for the most part, but the real test of their courage comes in the second battle and each one thereafter, once the first one has shown them how badly they can get fucked up.

BT

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Re: IRAQ: "The largest reenlistment ceremony ever held"!
« Reply #69 on: July 14, 2008, 01:39:35 PM »
He was also involved in the Pershing Expeditions into Mexico. He killed Villa's second in command.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: IRAQ: "The largest reenlistment ceremony ever held"!
« Reply #70 on: July 14, 2008, 02:24:03 PM »

'Los Crimenes De Los Buenos' by Joaquin Bochaca Published January 1, 2001
 
An excerpt...
 
(Note: The translation of the passage below from Joaquin Bochaca's book, "Los Crimenes De Los 'Buenos' " was prepared by a participant on Liberty Forum who writes under the name of "Mugwort." The Book by Bochaca, an Argentinian, appears to be a major writing. I hope it soon becomes available in english translation. The short passage below addresses the assassination of General Patton.)
 
The abuses committed by the Forces of the Occupation in Germany reached such bestial extremes that various people in the Allied command structure opposed it--or tried to. ... Lindbergh mentioned how the American soldiers burned the leftovers of their meals to keep them from being scavenged by the [starving] Germans who hung around the garbage barrels.
 
He also wrote: "In our homeland the public press publishes articles on how we 'liberated' the oppressed peoples. Here, our soldiers use the word 'liberate' to describe how they get their hands on loot. Everything they grab from from a German house, everything they take off a German is 'liberated' in the lingo of our troops. Leica cameras are liberated, food, works of art, clothes are liberated. A soldier who rapes a German girl is "liberating " her.
 
"There are German children who gaze at us as we eat ... our cursed regulations forbid us to give tham anything to eat. I remember the soldier Barnes, who was arrested for having given a chocolate bar to a tattered little girl. It's hard to look these children in the face. I feel ashamed. Ashamed of myself, my people, as I eat and look at those children. How can we have gotten so inhumane?" So wrote Colonel Lindbergh, national hero of the United States, who was proposed as a candidate for the presidency of his country, who fought in the air force of his country, who was not a nazi. Many decent American and British citizens can see that.
 
General Patton, perhaps the most popular of the American generals, immediately opposed the total or partial application of the Morgenthau Plan in his sector of occupation. Soon, he had a run-in with another general of higher rank: General Eisenhower. It's well-known what extremely violent debates they had about how the civilian population of Germany was to be treated. Patton was SENTENCED TO DEATH by the directors of the scenario.
 
One day Patton's car was run into by a military truck in what seemed like a very strange accident. The General was taken by ambulance to a hospital, where he was observed to have serious, but not life-threatening injuries. But some days later he died of a heart attack.
 
Patton's death, in any event, was extremely opportune. The General had annnounced that he was thinking of moving to the United States, where he was going to denounce publicly what was taking place in Germany. But he didn't have time. He had fought with too many important people. General Eisenhower had had to pick up the telephone and order that he be halted before he reached Berlin. At Yalta the new "masters of the world" had agreed that the Soviets would be the first to enter the German capital. Patton wanted to prevent the Vandal-like entrance of the Red Army into the capital of the Reich, and made an enemy of Eisenhower. A month before, he could have entered Prague, but was also detained by Eisenhower, leaving him nailed to the ground by an order.
 
Patton's difficulties with the WAR POWERS over the occupation of Germany were so great that Eisenhower stripped him of his position as Commander of the Third Army, and stuck him with the command of a secondary unit. Patton knew he was in danger of death, and confided as much to his family and close friends. He was feared because of his prestige-he was the most renowned American General, while Eisenhower was nothing more than a political soldier-and his words could alert the public to the reality of what was happening in Germany.
 
Thus the accident was set up, which was not by any means the first. On the 21st of April 1945, his airplane on which he was being transported to General Headquarters of the Third Army in Feldfield (England) was attacked by what was assumed to be a German fighter-bomber, but it turned out to be a "Spitfire" piloted by an inexpert Polish pilot. Patton's plane was shot up, but was miraculously able to land. On the 3rd of May, some days before the end of the war, the General's jeep was charged by an ox-drawn cart, leaving Patton with light injuries.
 
October 13, 1945 was when the collision with the truck occurred. When Patton appeared to be getting better from the accident, the "heart attack" occurred. The fact is that after October 13 only the doctors saw Patton, forbidding any other visitors.
 
Until recently, it was only speculation that Patton had been assassinated. Now it is known for a fact. And it is know for a very simple reason. Because an agent of the well-known OSS (Office of Strategic Services) or American military spy, a certain Douglas Bazata, a Jew of Lebanese origin, announced it in front of 450 invited guests; high ranking, ex-members of the OSS, in the Hilton Hotel in Washington, the 25th of September, 1979. Bazata said, word-for-word:
 
"For divers political reasons, many extremely high-ranking persons hated Patton. I know who killed him. Because I am the one who was hired to do it. Ten thousand dollars. General William Donovan himself, director of the O.S.S, entrusted me with the mission. I set up the accident. Since he didn't die in the accident, he was kept in isolation in the hospital, where he was killed with an injection."
 
The tragic fate of Patton convinced other colleagues and their honorable compatriots of the uselessness of fighting against the WAR POWERS. And if any doubts remained, the "Morgan case" was enough to dissipate them. (To be continued .)
 
http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres4/Bochaca-Crimines.pdf

 


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Plane

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Re: IRAQ: "The largest reenlistment ceremony ever held"!
« Reply #71 on: July 14, 2008, 03:13:37 PM »
what was the longest period of time that the general had ever personally served on the front lines under enemy fire?



Can't find that , Patton was known to keep close to the point , but I don't know how to find a quantity for it.

Michael Tee

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Re: IRAQ: "The largest reenlistment ceremony ever held"!
« Reply #72 on: July 14, 2008, 05:36:36 PM »
You believe that shit?  (that Ike had Patton killed)

<<So wrote Colonel Lindbergh, national hero of the United States . . . >>

The "national hero" was a Nazi-loving racist, decorated by Hermann Goering "on behalf of Adolf Hitler."  (see Wikipedia article) married to Anne Morrow Lindbergh, author of "The Wave of the Future," a book in praise of fascism, which Mrs. Lindbergh considered in the book to be "the wave of the future."

<< who was proposed as a candidate for the presidency of his country . . . "

Yeah, but only by Nazi-loving anti-Semites who loved him for his racism and pro-fascist attitudes.

<< . . .  who fought in the air force of his country . . . >>

as George Lincoln Rockwell, the late leader of the American Nazi Party, fought in the army of his country; too bad that military service is no guarantor of anti-fascist, anti-racist attitudes.

<< . . . who was not a nazi. >>

Sure coulda fooled me.  If he wasn't, he came as close as any man can come to being a Nazi without being a Nazi.

<<Many decent American and British citizens can see that.>>

Depends on how ya define "decent" I guess.  If "decent" means Jew-hating, racist, nazi-loving fascist apologist, then I guess I'd hafta agree with the author.

fatman

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Re: IRAQ: "The largest reenlistment ceremony ever held"!
« Reply #73 on: July 14, 2008, 05:56:04 PM »
You believe that shit?  (that Ike had Patton killed)

Not for a nanosecond.

I too noticed that the article whitewashed Lindberg's pro-German stance, and while he was an American hero up to the war, he wasn't really relevant after the war.  The nation had its own "Wave of the Future" then, the heroes that came back from the European and Pacific theaters.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: IRAQ: "The largest reenlistment ceremony ever held"!
« Reply #74 on: July 14, 2008, 05:58:20 PM »
No, I don't personally believe that Ike had Patton killed. I suppose it is conceivable. I am not prepared to believe it at the moment.

Charles Lindbergh was a brave and intelligent aviator who seems to have taken a wrong turn with regard to Herr Hitler. He thought of Hitler as a political genius who pulled Germany out of the Depression and a rather deep national malaise by draining swamps, fostering the Volkswagen, and building Autobahns. Lindbergh impressed the Nazis by being brave, intelligent, Nordic and tall. Lindy failed to impress the Republicans, probably because they did not like his internationalist and second-generation immigrant view of the world. Alf Landon was more to their liking.

Lindbergh's father-in-law was the ambassador to Mexico who was instrumental in the US not invading or doing other warlike acts when Lazaro Cárdenas nationalized the oil industry in Mexico in 1938. The Mexican Pro-Nazi Sinarquista party was hoping that they could become the new pro-American government. They had a movement going called the Cristeros, who burned Mexican schoolhouses where indios were learning how to read, and built a huge statue of Jesus on a hill called Cubilete (which resembles an upside-down bucket) in central Mexico. It is quite impressive. I have not visited the Jesus in Rio harbor or the Cristo de los Andes. I would recommend the Valle de los Caidos monument in Spain, built by Franco's forced labor brigades for the most impressive I have personally seen, though. Fascism really seems to enjoy large cement Jesi.

Anyway, the Sinarquistas built a private pro-Catholic University in Guadalajara, the Universidad Autonoma de Guadalajara, to counter the national University, the UNAM. In the 1960's, the Rockefeller Foundation gave the UAG a large amount of money to build a Medical school. The tuition schedule was that Mexicans paid the least, Central Americans double, and Americans got to pay seven times what Mexicans paid.

When I was attending a different university in Guadalajara in the 1970's, I met a number of American med students from the UAG. They were nearly all Jewish doctor's and dentist's kids who had failed the entrance exams in the US. I thought it was somewhat amusing that Jewish Americans were the biggest benefactors of a Fascist Mexican Nazi university. Of course,  the Jewish students were unaware of the Sinarquista connection, and only wanted a medical degree and the ability to pass the state board exams.


The Sinarquistas that I met were the children and grandchildren of rich ultracatholic Mexicans. Nearly all  believed that Roosevelt was Jewish, as was Harry Solomon Truman and I have heard that Rockefeller was also Jewish. They could not figure out why a Jew like Rockefeller would contribute millions to the UAG, though.

The basic Sinarquista belief was that the Masons, the Communists, the Jews and the American Banking community were all out to conquer the world. They disagreed whether the sign that they had achieved this end would involve the Masonic takeover of Mexico or perhaps the kidnapping or assassination of the Pope.

At the moment, the Sinarquistas are the ultra right wing of the PAN (Partido de Accion Nacional). The main wing is composed of Monterrey industrialists, and the Sinarquistas have their base among Jalisco and Michoacan landowners.

The main sinarquista books used to be displayed in the window of nearly every bookstore.
Salvador Borrego's ¡America Peligro!, and ¡America Despierta! (America Danger! and America, Awake Up!) by America Borrego meant the Americas, not the USA. These are conspiratorial in tone, and each book features many many exclamation points, which are always used in pairs in Spanish (¡ at the beginning and ! at the end).

« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 06:16:34 PM by Xavier_Onassis »
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."