Author Topic: Time tables  (Read 14872 times)

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Amianthus

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Re: Time tables
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2008, 12:24:36 AM »
OK that makes 37 out of every 100 Iraqis who did NOT vote for the constitution.
Of the 63 who DID vote, 22% (plane's figures) or 14 voters did not vote for the constitution.

Not voting is not the same thing as voting no. Matter of fact, you can consider it a positive vote - they didn't bother to vote because they knew it would pass.

Besides, in a democracy only those who vote have their voices heard. That's even the way it works in Canada, last I heard.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Amianthus

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Re: Time tables
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2008, 12:28:03 AM »
Even if it HAD the support of 51% of Iraqis, which it apparently did not.  The "elections" are bullshit.  The Iraqis will solve the problem of a government, but they will do it in their own way, not the American way, after the Americans have left or have been driven out.

Perhaps you can enlighten us as to an election that had 100% voter turnout which was NOT done at the barrel of a gun.

After all, if we were forcing the Iraqi election at the barrel of a gun, as you claim, we could have easily forced a 100% voter turnout just to make sure that you couldn't make the claim that you're currently making.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Time tables
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2008, 12:33:33 AM »
<<Besides, in a democracy only those who vote have their voices heard. >>

That's true enough, but whatever gave you the idea that Iraq was a democracy?  It was an occupied country in which the occupier decided that elections would be held on the occupier's terms.

<<Perhaps you can enlighten us as to an election that had 100% voter turnout which was NOT done at the barrel of a gun.>>

Nice try, but failure to produce a 100% turnout is NOT one of the issues in this thread.

<<After all, if we were forcing the Iraqi election at the barrel of a gun, as you claim, we could have easily forced a 100% voter turnout just to make sure that you couldn't make the claim that you're currently making.>>

Yeah, except (a) it would have looked bad, because in the U.S.A., 100% voter turnout is associated with Stalinism and (b) if they all turned out, you might not have gotten even a 50% majority (in fact, if my numbers are right, you wouldn't have) and THAT would have been embarrassing.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Time tables
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2008, 12:33:45 AM »
Iraq has been a country for maybe 6000 years.

The only time they have ever had elections for a winner-take-all American style pluralistic democracy is when Juniorbush et al imposed it on them.

There can be only Iraqi solutions to Iraqi problems.

There are dozens of ways to interpret "fairness".

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: Time tables
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2008, 12:52:30 AM »
Yeah, except (a) it would have looked bad, because in the U.S.A., 100% voter turnout is associated with Stalinism and (b) if they all turned out, you might not have gotten even a 50% majority (in fact, if my numbers are right, you wouldn't have) and THAT would have been embarrassing.

Your numbers are far more likely to be wrong. Statistically, the votes among those who abstained would have been split around 38% for and 62% against (that was the average among Sunni voters that did turn out). So, you have 14 out of 100 who voted against, and around 23 of the 37 who did not vote would have voted against, yielding 14+23=37 out of 100 who would have voted no. You're assuming that 100% of the people who did not vote would have voted no; this is an incorrect assumption.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 12:54:04 AM by Amianthus »
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Time tables
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2008, 01:00:14 AM »
<<Your numbers are far more likely to be wrong. Statistically, the votes among those who abstained would have been split around 38% for and 62% against (that was the average among Sunni voters that did turn out). >>

There's no way to compare the split in the non-voters with the split among the Sunni voters.  You can't assume that supporters and non-supporters of the "elections" were equally distributed in both the voting  and the non-voting Sunni. 

<<You're assuming that 100% of the people who did not vote would have voted no; this is an incorrect assumption.>>

It's an assumption and it's as likely to be true as any other assumption of why they stayed home.  The fact is, we just don't know why all of them stayed home but their absence shows only that for whatever reason, they did not see fit to add their voice to the "election" that the Americans were forcing them to hold.  So NONE of those voices can be counted in support of the elections.  If they supported the elections, they would have gone and voted in them.

Amianthus

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Re: Time tables
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2008, 01:18:20 AM »
If they supported the elections, they would have gone and voted in them.

Unless they were afraid of getting killed by the thugs that threatened to kill people who voted.

You remember that, don't you?

It's an assumption and it's as likely to be true as any other assumption of why they stayed home.

No group of people will ever vote 100% in one way on this type of referendum. To make the assumption that they would is just asinine.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Time tables
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2008, 01:28:29 AM »
<<No group of people will ever vote 100% in one way on this type of referendum. To make the assumption that they would is just asinine.>>

What's asinine is to count any of them as supporters of the election.  They stayed away, they can't be counted as supporting anything.  You could assume some stayed home out of fear, some just couldn't get out and some stayed home out of indifference.  To NONE of them was it important enough to risk their life over.

Over-arching all of this is the fact that the "election" was a process imposed upon them by force of arms.  From which certain representatives were excluded by the Americans.

It's asinine indeed to consider that "election" as indicating the will of the Iraqi people.

Plane

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Re: Time tables
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2008, 01:33:19 AM »
<<No group of people will ever vote 100% in one way on this type of referendum. To make the assumption that they would is just asinine.>>

What's asinine is to count any of them as supporters of the election.  They stayed away, they can't be counted as supporting anything.  You could assume some stayed home out of fear, some just couldn't get out and some stayed home out of indifference.  To NONE of them was it important enough to risk their life over.

Over-arching all of this is the fact that the "election" was a process imposed upon them by force of arms.  From which certain representatives were excluded by the Americans.

It's asinine indeed to consider that "election" as indicating the will of the Iraqi people.

I think that asking them was the best availible means for finding out their will.

I am certian that Saddam Hussein did not represent the will of the people, he simply had the guns to produce his legitamacy.

Amianthus

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Re: Time tables
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2008, 08:54:08 AM »
What's asinine is to count any of them as supporters of the election.

I don't count then as supporters of the election - statistically, however, some percentage of them would support the new constitution. The number should be roughly proportional to the general numbers among the Sunni population who voted.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Time tables
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2008, 12:11:04 PM »
I think it's obvious that some of the Sunnis who stayed home probably would have supported whatever the Americans wanted and others would not.  Since they stayed home, we can only make assumptions, which is OK because you could make assumptions of similar reliability or non-reliability based on polls.  I think though, whether you're basing an assessment on polls or on other assumptions (and I think it's a particularly weak assumption that non-voting Sunnis would have split in the same proportion as voting Sunnis) it's important to note that the conclusion is based on either polling, or election results supplemented heavily by particular assumptions, but it is not based on the will of the people expressed through an election, simply because the nature of the "election" in question is far different from the kind of election we are used to.  Their "election" was basically a PR exercise based on armed force and represented nothing more than the managed outcome of a process whose underlying ground rules were dictated by the occupying power.  Those who benefit from such an "election" and their American supporters will obviously claim legitimacy but no one other than the direct beneficiaries and their American and other foreign supporters - - particularly no Iraqis - - will ever be able to accept the legitimacy of those "elections."

The bigger problem, however, rests on the assumption that an American-made solution (free and fair elections) would solve an Iraqi problem.  The one-size-fits-all assumptions that Americans are prone to make have a built-in rationale that what works for America and similar societies will work for all societies.   It's reinforced by an innate belief in American superiority over the rest of the world.   It's further reinforced by the simplistic assumption that the only alternative to "democracy" is iron-fisted dictatorship, a la Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, etc.  Two alternative models - - consensus models and class-based dictatorships (most famously, the dictatorship of the proletariat) are never discussed, and furthermore, a cartoonish, one-dimensional view of dictatorships such as (for example) the Saddam Hussein regime almost always fail to examine to what extent other interests (class or tribal) are accommodated within the so-called dictatorial system.

IMHO, American-style democracy (one person one vote, winner take all) is simply not workable in a tribalized society such as Iraq and it's a mistake to try to force this down their throats.  The British did the same thing to them with a constitutional monarchy, which lasted for about twenty years.  They bombed the living shit out of them back in the 1930s, and the leader of the air war against the Iraqi rebels then was Arthur ("Bomber") Harris, later the wartime commander of RAF Bomber Command.  Didn't do any good - - in less than 20 years, the government was overthrown in a coup d'etat bringing the Ba'ath Arab Socialist Party, and ultimately, Saddam Hussein, to power.   It's hard to accept but this is an ancient society, much older than America, and they settle their own affairs their own way, not somebody else's way.

Plane

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Re: Time tables
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2008, 12:22:30 PM »
Quote
"IMHO, American-style democracy (one person one vote, winner take all) is simply not workable in a tribalized society such as Iraq and ..."


Why not?

If tribal leaders are very influential in elections , the result won't be any worse than tribal leaders without elections.

Michael Tee

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Re: Time tables
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2008, 12:51:50 PM »
<<If tribal leaders are very influential in elections , the result won't be any worse than tribal leaders without elections.>>

What it boils down to is readiness to accept the results.  These people have competing loyalties which are stronger than any comparable competing loyalties in the U.S., Canada or the U.K.

Plane

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Re: Time tables
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2008, 12:57:05 AM »


What's asinine is to count any of them as supporters of the election.  They stayed away, they can't be counted as supporting anything.  You could assume some stayed home out of fear, some just couldn't get out and some stayed home out of indifference.  To NONE of them was it important enough to risk their life over.




So the Majority that did go to the polls can be counted as supporting the idea of a poll even if thir vote was no?

Plane

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Re: Time tables
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2008, 01:05:31 AM »
<<If tribal leaders are very influential in elections , the result won't be any worse than tribal leaders without elections.>>

What it boils down to is readiness to accept the results.  These people have competing loyalties which are stronger than any comparable competing loyalties in the U.S., Canada or the U.K.

I have troubble accepting results sometimes myself.

Sometimes I really cant beleive that anyone is stupid enough to vote for someone like Bill Clinton, and it huirts that he won with less than half of the votes , darn technicalities!

But I feel honor bound to accept the results in the same grace I expect my opponents to accept their looseing, or the grace I wish they had anyway.

It should be understood that the looseing side will stand down peacefully why elese submit to elections? I know that my group would win in a gunfight , but avoiding frequent gunfighting is so worthwile it is worth submitting to being honor bound to the rules .