Author Topic: Why Obama won't want to debate McCain much  (Read 5937 times)

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Amianthus

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Re: Why Obama won't want to debate McCain much
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2008, 01:40:13 PM »
Doesn't matter much though, because McCain just pulled another gaffe.  He's the gift that keeps on giving.  The so-called "Anbar Awakening" began many months before the surge - - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ilan-goldenberg/not-a-gaffe-a-fundaemtnal_b_114394.html - -
 
yet we have McCain crediting the surge with the "Anbar Awakening."  Proving he either doesn't know what the hell is going on there or he'll say anything to get elected.

As was pointed out in the other thread, the "An-bar Awakening" idea was first formed during discussions between various sheiks and the US military in November of 2006, and the "Iraq Surge" was being discussed by the US military around the same time. Both became "official" in March of 2007. I don't see how either one began "months" before the other. I'm not privy to the contents of the talks between the sheiks and the military (which McCain would be...) but it doesn't sound far fetched to me to that the military said "if you form a group to fight Al Qaeda, we'll send in more military to help." And there was born both ideas.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Why Obama won't want to debate McCain much
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2008, 01:51:52 PM »
<<As was pointed out in the other thread, the "An-bar Awakening" idea was first formed during discussions between various sheiks and the US military in November of 2006,>>

There's the problem - - as I posted in the other thread, in SEPTEMBER of 06, Col. MacFarlane was publicly on record boasting about the success of the Anbar Awakening in deed if not in name.  At that time, according to him, they already had al Qaeda up against the ropes.  The surge hadn't even been decided on at that time, was decided about two months later and wasn't announced to the public until about three months later.  It was pointed out in the article I posted or another one that Col MacFarland's troops were being deployed out of Al Anbar at the same time as the first troops of the "surge" were arriving.

Amianthus

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Re: Why Obama won't want to debate McCain much
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2008, 03:01:10 PM »
Yeah, and they were talking about increasing troop levels via a surge in early 2006 as well, but it was shelved until after the elections.

Just because a few sheiks were fighting back then doesn't mean it was a coordinated movement - that didn't come until very late in the year, well after al-Rishawi was assassinated. And we increased our troop levels early in 2006 anyway, kind of a "pre-surge" surge.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Brassmask

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Re: Why Obama won't want to debate McCain much
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2008, 03:35:07 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080722/pl_politico/11939

McCain is more used to extemporanious speaking and will make Obama look slow and poorly breifed .....


Quote
In Phoenix earlier this month, McCain referred to Czechoslovakia, which has been divided since Jan. 1, 1993, into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. He also referred to Czechoslovakia during a debate in November and a radio show in April.&nbsp;


.... or not?



Consider also his reference to the Iraq/Pakistan border.


Amianthus

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Re: Why Obama won't want to debate McCain much
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2008, 03:53:45 PM »
Consider also his reference to the Iraq/Pakistan border.

That was a slip of the tongue, like Obama's 57 states. He had been talking about Iraq, he was asked a question about Afghanistan, and when he replied, he said Iraq instead of Afghanistan.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Why Obama won't want to debate McCain much
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2008, 04:07:46 PM »
<<Just because a few sheiks were fighting back then doesn't mean it was a coordinated movement - that didn't come until very late in the year, well after al-Rishawi was assassinated.>>

But al-Rishawi was assassinated in Sept. of 2007.  Your time-line is fucked up.  That's a year AFTER Col. MacFarlane was publicly boasting that the local sheikhs had al Qaeda "against the ropes."   Read the article.  It had taken MacFarlane a year of work before he got the results he was boasting of.

<<Yeah, and they were talking about increasing troop levels via a surge in early 2006 as well, but it was shelved until after the elections.>>

Too bad McCain doesn't know that.  HE was boasting that "the surge" which HE had recommended - - not "talk about" a surge in 2006 - - was responsible for the so-called "Awakening."  Maybe he can tweak his bullshit machine a little bit and claim that his "talking about" the surge in "early 2006" somehow got back to the Anbar Sheikhs and goaded them into awakening - - ideally, before MacFarlane and his men even GOT to Anbar Province.

<<And we increased our troop levels early in 2006 anyway, kind of a "pre-surge" surge.>>

Oh, now I get it.  There were TWO surges, one early in 2006 and one, known as "the surge" to all but the cognoscenti of this war, which Bush announced in January of 2007.  Kinda like two "Missions" one "Mission Accomplished" being the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, and the other, "Mission Unaccomplished" being the complete subjugation of Iraq, expected any day now due to the great success of Surge 2..  I think McCain better explain pretty quick that when he says "the surge" which he recommended was responsible for the "Anbar Awakening," he means the surge of 2006, of course.  That makes a lot of sense.

Too bad McCain didn't make himself clear in the first place.  Now it'll just sound like he's grasping at straws and sophistry.  Not that such a fine and noble man would ever . . .  uh, ever stoop to . . . uh, would . . . ?   Naaah!  Not John Insane.  Not OUR John Insane!

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Why Obama won't want to debate McCain much
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2008, 04:07:46 PM »
i really do want to know how to spell extemporanious

EXTEMPORANEOUS .

There!

With an E, not an I.

Actually three E's, and no I's.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Why Obama won't want to debate McCain much
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2008, 06:23:14 PM »
So in a debate that allowed a lot of freedom of discussion ,...


Which canadate would come off better?


Which Canadate is trying to avoid such a thing?

Michael Tee

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Re: Why Obama won't want to debate McCain much
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2008, 08:29:48 PM »
<<So in a debate that allowed a lot of freedom of discussion ,...


<<Which canadate would come off better?>>

Obviously, Obama, IMHO.  McSame makes lots of gaffes and he's not very smart.  Fifth from the bottom of his class, in fact.  Obama was a law professor.  You gotta be kidding.  The longer they talk, the dumber McSame will appear and the smarter Obama will appear.


<<Which Canadate is trying to avoid such a thing?>>
I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that factors other than "Who's gonna do better?" would be important in the decision.  For example, if one candidate is way out in front of the other, regardless of his debating skills, he's not going to want the debate because when things are going well, you don't want any change at all.  You also have to worry about dirty tricks - - as for example, when George W. Bush showed up for  a debate with a radio in the back of his suit, so answers could be fed to him.  If you're already ahead and the other Party has a reputation for dirty tricks, where is the incentive to debate?

Plane

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Re: Why Obama won't want to debate McCain much
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2008, 08:56:03 PM »
<<So in a debate that allowed a lot of freedom of discussion ,...


<<Which canadate would come off better?>>

Obviously, Obama, IMHO.  McSame makes lots of gaffes and he's not very smart.  Fifth from the bottom of his class, in fact.  Obama was a law professor.  You gotta be kidding.  The longer they talk, the dumber McSame will appear and the smarter Obama will appear.


<<Which Canadate is trying to avoid such a thing?>>
I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that factors other than "Who's gonna do better?" would be important in the decision.  For example, if one candidate is way out in front of the other, regardless of his debating skills, he's not going to want the debate because when things are going well, you don't want any change at all.  You also have to worry about dirty tricks - - as for example, when George W. Bush showed up for  a debate with a radio in the back of his suit, so answers could be fed to him.  If you're already ahead and the other Party has a reputation for dirty tricks, where is the incentive to debate?

I think it is interesting that Obama is the one trying to avoid such a debate , his lead is not wide really but he may be afaraid that McCain would make him seem slow and eliminate the lead altogether.

Michael Tee

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Re: Why Obama won't want to debate McCain much
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2008, 10:35:15 PM »
I think that maybe he's afraid that McSame's macho posturing could put him on the defensive, making him look weak and effeminate.

One thing I noticed is that white males seem to have the monopoly on acceptable expressions of the will to do violence.  When McSame talks tough, he's fitting himself into a culturally acceptable pattern, along the lines of John Wayne movies. 

If Obama wants to talk tough and stay true to who he is, he'd have to come nearer than McSame to the language of the black ghetto, painting himself as a "scary black man" and turning off a lot of his white suburban base.

Expressions of anger and belligerence from a white male following a military model are, sadly, viewed as acceptable conduct in public discourse.  A black man's expression of similar sentiments, if echoing the inflections and delivery of McSame or any white other military man would run the risk of appearing inauthentic, but if Obama wants to be more authentic and sound black while talking tough, he'll scare off some of his white voters.

So McCain may have the poor guy boxed in - - he talks tough and if Obama declines to follow, he appears effeminate and weak; following in a "black" delivery scares off the whites; and following in a "white" delivery mode sounds inauthentic.  In such circumstances Obama might be wise not to appear on a platform where he can't control the presentation of the message 100%.

Amianthus

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Re: Why Obama won't want to debate McCain much
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2008, 11:42:36 PM »
If Obama wants to talk tough and stay true to who he is, he'd have to come nearer than McSame to the language of the black ghetto, painting himself as a "scary black man" and turning off a lot of his white suburban base.

When was Obama living in a "black ghetto"?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Why Obama won't want to debate McCain much
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2008, 12:29:11 AM »
<<When was Obama living in a "black ghetto"?>>

Far as I know, never.  But you don't have to live in a black ghetto to talk like you live there.  Look at P. Diddy for example.  It's a matter of style.  How many urban accountants drive SUVs even though 99.9999% of their driving is done on city streets?

Obama, if challenged to talk tough by McSame, regardless of his background, can "talk white" pleasing some white listeners, pissing off others for lack of "authenticity," or pissing off black supporters for talking "too white."  Or he can opt for the more "authentic" black sound, keeping his black supporters on board but scaring off some whites.

Amianthus

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Re: Why Obama won't want to debate McCain much
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2008, 12:36:36 AM »
Far as I know, never.  But you don't have to live in a black ghetto to talk like you live there.

Then how is that "staying true to who he is"?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Why Obama won't want to debate McCain much
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2008, 01:18:26 AM »
<<Then how is that "staying true to who he is"?>>

It's a subjective feeling.  Sorta like hippies in the Sixties trying to get away from their "materialistic"  or "plastic" home environments and getting back to the land.

Maybe "being true to who he is" isn't the best way to put it.  Maybe it's more like "getting back to who you were supposed to be."

Maybe he feels, or a lot of urban, up-scale blacks feel, they sacrificed too much of their "selves" to get to where they are now and they need to get back to their roots.

Maybe a lot of blacks "recognize" something in the ghetto, something that the more assimilated world of the black suburbanites have had to lose, but that reminds them of home, or grandparents or elderly aunts and uncles.

I can recognize a cadence in Obama's voice that is not there in the voices of white suburbanites, usually in the way he says "y'know," the "y" sound followed closely by the "o" in know together almost making a "yo" as in, well, as in "yo muthafucka."  Maybe he just wants to be able to say "yo" without evoking scary gangsta images in white imaginations.

All I know, bottom line, is that there's a comfort level for folks who have to assimilate into a larger society, where they keep enough of what they were raised on or are familiar with to be comfortable, and not too much which would mark them as an outsider.  And if they keep on too much of the old stuff, they are just never going to fit in, and if they leave too much behind, they are just phonies.  So a black always has a comfort zone where he knows he's not "acting white" and he's not embarrassing himself in the larger society.  And a black can usually tell if he feels another black is "acting too white."

My guess, and it's based on some of those "y'know's" that I heard,  is that Obama, whether raised in the ghetto or not, has a comfort level that includes some of the ways of speech of the less assimilated black community and could easily and very comfortably lapse into it.  And there is some degree of discomfort when he's out of it.