ANOTHER reason why John Insane won't be debating much with Obama

[Amianthus]

So? That makes him a UK citizen, but not necessarily British.

Can any law or governmental provision make you a Celt or an Ojibwa?

I'm pretty sure Bear was talking about nationality, not racial origins. Queen Elizabeth II is of German ancestry, but no one would presume to say that she is not British.

[Michael Tee]

<<All war criminals, the damned lot of 'em. If you fight with anything more advanced than clubs and rocks, it's a war crime.>>

I think it's the application of the WP to a civilian population that is the war crime.  And in the broader context, the invasion of Iraq is a criminal act, making all the participants criminals.  British too, sad to say.

<<I'd like to see where T has one charge that has held up anywhere showing that the entire American Army, including every officer, is a war criminal. >>

Never claimed that they were.  If they didn't go to Iraq, Viet Nam, Panama, the DR, etc., then how can they be criminals? 

Strange, huh, how the U.S. WILL NOT RECOGNIZE the jurisdiction of the International Court of Criminal Justice to try Americans for war crimes?  Even your leaders know in their fucking guts they are a bunch of fucking criminals.

<<Hey, T, I was a member of that Army at one time. >>

Wouldn't make you a criminal if you didn't serve in Viet Nam.  Would make you a criminal if you did.

<<And, sonofabitch, I'm an American, and apparently you can't stand either, the way you can't pass up an opportunity to bad mouth both of them. >>

That's pure bullshit.  When did I bad-mouth Noam Chomsky?  Dennis Kucinich?  Jane Fonda?  Rosa Parks?  Russell Fucking MEANS for christ sake!   I support the GOOD Americans, the anti-fascist, anti-racist, anti-militarist, anti-war Americans.  You fell into the trap the right-wingers set, that only fascists, militarists and war-mongers are Americans, everyone else "hates America."  Fucking bullshit and you probably know better.

<<Which makes me wonder why the fuck you even bother to hang around here in the old U.S. of by-God A, if you hate us so much. >>

I just want to help you.  Besides, two of my three little grandchildren are little Americans.  It's a great country.

<<I know we have our problems, and I know our government has done a lot to poke the rest of the world in the eye. >>

Translation:  I know we're a bunch of racists and war-mongers.

<<I've never been one to tell anybody to love it or leave it, but I'm about fed up with your bad mouthing any and everything American, and denigrating our military, especially the dead.>>

Fuck them, they're dead war criminals and pinning an American flag on them doesn't change the situation.  You're way too indulgent with them.  You KNOW they participated in a huge crime that has cost hundreds of thousands of innocent lives that never posed the slightest threat to them, and all you can focus on is, these are Americans and they can't be bad-mouthed.  Here's a news flash for you - - people who do bad things CAN be bad-mouthed and SHOULD be bad-mouthed, whether they're Japs, Nazis or Americans.  Being an American is not a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card.

<<There is a lot I can agree with you about, about Bush and the follyh of the war in Iraq.>>

Well, it's not a "folly," it's a crime.  But otherwise, yeah, two and two DO make four, don't they?

<<Those I cannot agree with you about. Ever. I've been to a lot of countries over the years, including Canada, and I'll tell you right now, with all its problems, there is still nowhere else in the world I would rather live than here. >>

It's a great country.  I never denied that.  I could even understand choosing it over Canada.  Over half my mum's family and one of my three children have made that choice.  Two of my kids got their master's degree in the U.S.  I love to visit and I really like most of the Americans I meet when traveling.  But loving the U.S.A. in general does not equate to approving its criminal policies.

<<You can call us hillbillies and hicks all you want, I just wish you would go somewhere else to do it. After all, our great-great-grand hillbilles and hicks got rid of the rest of you British troublemakers over 200 years ago.>>

Yeah you got rid of them alright.  Kept most of their forms of government, laws and administration, but you got rid of them.  The only difference between you and the Canadians is that you made some big  improvements on the British system from the beginning, and we clung to it maybe a little longer than we should have.  They are still a thousand times more civilized in their behaviour then your country will ever be.  They've still done a thousand times more good in the world than you will ever do.  They stood up to Hitler when there was no one else to stand beside them and America's main concern was keeping themselves out of the fight.  You've got a lot of God-damn nerve criticizing the British Empire.

[Michael Tee]

<<MT might be a Canadian, but British seems to be one of the things he clearly isn;t.>>

I beg to differ.  My first passport says:  "Nationality:  British by birth"   Over the years, I saw the Canadian passport office gradually water this down; first, "Nationality: Canadian," and printed at the bottom of the same page, "A Canadian citizen is a British subject," and finally, the elimination of any reference to Great Britain in the current passports.

In small, largely symbolic ways, our Province, Ontario, is more British than the British:  We still celebrate Queen Victoria's birthday, the 24th of May, as an official statutory holiday.  Even the English have given that up.

I'm very proud of any British heritage that remains to me.  Our public school used to fly the Union Jack from its flagpole, and our junior high school had a huge portrait of the Queen in the lobby outside the principal's office.  We began each assembly with the singing of the national anthem which was then "God Save the Queen."  All of those symbols have long since been deleted from our national life.  My kids never saw them.  Until the 1970s, I had the right to move to England, vote in their elections and run for elected office after three months' residence.   That was changed by English law since it appeared that many more Jamaicans than Canadians were taking advantage of the privilege.  They couldn't just ban the Jamaicans, which would be blatantly racist, so they banned ALL Commonwealth citizens instead, which was superficially non-racist.  But I will tell you, England is the greatest country that ever existed.  And it's directly responsible for 90% of whatever good can still be found in America.

<<Canada as it exists today, it the result of the British trying to get it right on the second try. It took about 175 years and an ample dose of Mohandas Gandhi, but Canada is the better for it.>>

Yes.

<<There is much to be said for a country that isn't crowded, too.>>

No, we need more people.  But we DO have some great national parks, and nobody's gonna drill for oil in them.

<<The US is getting too crowded and we are doing nothing about it.>>

No comment, only because I don't know if anyone has ever figured out if there is an optimum population for the U.S.

[hnumpah]

They are still a thousand times more civilized in their behaviour then your country will ever be.

 

And still can't figure out the difference between then and than. Who needs two forks and wants to hold their pinky out when they drink tea anyway?

They've still done a thousand times more good in the world than you will ever do.

Bullshit.

They stood up to Hitler when there was no one else to stand beside them...

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Let's not forget the Russians. Or lend-lease. Or convoys. Enough Americans were concerned with standing by the British to finds ways to help them, despite our laws saying we should remain neutral. And let's not forget that without that help, Britain might be speaking German today.

You've got a lot of God-damn nerve criticizing the British Empire.

I say the same about you and your constant carping about the US and our troops.

[hnumpah]

Mikey likes to poke the bear.

Not generally - he just likes to go on and on about how bad we Americans are. I generally ignore him when he gets like that, even though there are a lot of things I agree with him about, but when he started the '4000 dead hillbillies' shit the other day, I'd had enough and decided to call him on it. I don't agree with the war in Iraq, or with our troops being there, but they're there, putting their asses on the line for something, right or wrong. He may think it's wrong, I may think it's wrong, but that's no reason to denigrate the sacrifice they've made. And he might consider his own words, that they are sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, and more, so the sacrifice is not theirs alone.

I guess I just can't stand for the sorry sonofabitch to speak ill of the dead, any one of which probably has more honor in one eyelash than T could ever have.

[Amianthus]

<<I'd like to see where T has one charge that has held up anywhere showing that the entire American Army, including every officer, is a war criminal. >>

Never claimed that they were.  If they didn't go to Iraq, Viet Nam, Panama, the DR, etc., then how can they be criminals? 

Sure you did.

<<And US Troops are still issued WP as a part of their normal TOE. >>

And why does that not surprise me?  They are war criminals and their commanders are war criminals. 

[Michael Tee]

<<I guess I just can't stand for the sorry sonofabitch to speak ill of the dead, any one of which probably has more honor in one eyelash than T could ever have.>>

The day when a dead war criminal has more honour in his eyelash than a fucking snake let alone than Michael T. or anyone else opposed to war, fascism, racism and militarism will be a frosty day in hell.  And there are hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis and millions of dead Vietnamese including hundreds of thousands of dead children who could have backed me up on that if they hadn't been murdered by American criminals.  Quit sentimentalizing the bastards and recognize what they actually did.

[BT]

Ah yes the group slur

commie bastards do that a lot

[hnumpah]

Quit sentimentalizing the bastards and recognize what they actually did.

Fuck you, you sorry sonofabitch. Go peddle your bullshit to someone else.

[Plane]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/wp.htm


Smoke grenades are irritateing but the smole is not particulary dangerous.

Marker Rockets put a plume of smoke on a target that other more potent wepons can direct onto.

As incindiry devices go WP is no worse than the others , because all incendiary devices are very bad to be near when they ignite.

[Xavier_Onassis]

You may be British if you wish, MT.

I don't really think that the English are such hot snot. They were largely successful in making their European populated colonies into respectable democracies: Canada, New Zealand, Australia. I'd say the Irish had to work the hardest, because the UK did not want to allow it to be independent. They were less successful by an order of magnitude in Africa. South Africa, and Botswana seem to have done quite well, Kenya and Tanzania less well, Zimbabwe and Nigeria are basket cases.

I'd say the Swedes and Danes have managed to do better for themselves than the English and the Scots. Everyone has cleaned up their act since WWII, except the US, which seems to have gotten worse. I would attribute this more to the loathsome and manipulative Dulles Brothers, since most every foreign policy mess can be laid in their laps: Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, most of Central America and South America: if it sucked and it happened since 1944, it is invariably the fault of crap the Dulles Bros. pulled off.



When people ask what nationality I am, I say, "The last name is Saxon, but I am also part Dutch, Irish, French and Choctaw." I don't think I would use the word "British".

Onassis is, of course, a pseudonym. As well as good advice.  You all should Xavier Onassis, in my opinion.

[Michael Tee]

<<Smoke grenades are irritateing but the smole is not particulary dangerous.

<<Marker Rockets put a plume of smoke on a target that other more potent wepons can direct onto.

<<As incindiry devices go WP is no worse than the others , because all incendiary devices are very bad to be near when they ignite.>>

Apparently the Bush administration tells so many lies that its supporters can't always keep up with the latest one.  Originally the U.S. just flat-out denied the use of WP in Fallujah.  Then they had to admit it was used, but only as a "marker" - - which seems to be about as far as plane followed the trail of lies.  Since then they have had to change tack again, and admit that they were using WP as a weapon - -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4440664.stm

<<US troops used white phosphorus as a weapon in last year's offensive in the Iraqi city of Falluja, the US has said.
<<"It was used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants," spokesman Lt Col Barry Venable told the BBC - though not against civilians, he said.
<<The US had earlier said the substance - which can cause burning of the flesh - had been used only for illumination.
<<BBC defence correspondent Paul Wood says having to retract its denial is a public relations disaster for the US.
<<Col Venable denied that white phosphorous constituted a banned chemical weapon. >>

It's true that as of now, they have yet to admit using the WP against civilian noncombatants.  The numerous eye-witness accounts and photos leave no doubt that many Fallujah civilians died of phosphorus burns  so you can take the denials for what they're worth, especially in view of their previous lies about it.

[Michael Tee]

<<I don't really think that the English are such hot snot. They were largely successful in making their European populated colonies into respectable democracies: Canada, New Zealand, Australia. I'd say the Irish had to work the hardest, because the UK did not want to allow it to be independent. They were less successful by an order of magnitude in Africa. South Africa, and Botswana seem to have done quite well, Kenya and Tanzania less well, Zimbabwe and Nigeria are basket cases.>>

You know, XO, some of these countries have racial/tribal/religious divides that no amount of British Parliamentary democracy can fix.  Or problems of poverty and exploitation by the First World that have dug them into holes that nobody can dig them out of.  But even in the worst cases, I can't help thinking they'd be even worse without the standards set by the British for them to at least try to preserve. 

A few nights ago I watched a TV documentary on Sharia law in some Nigerian states where it operates in parallel with the civil law, which takes precedence if one party wants it to.  They were showing an argument in the Nigerian civil courts over the Sharia court's jurisdiction, and the case was being argued by Nigerian barristers in wigs and robes and I was very impressed at the standard of advocacy, there in Africa, African lawyers addressing the court in the formal English way ("my Lord," "your Lordship," etc.) and arguing learnedly and courteously before the bewigged African judge.  Pretty much the same as lawyers would do anywhere in the English-speaking world.  It was a measure of the breadth of the power and the influence of the British Empire and there is no doubt in my mind that no matter how fucked up Nigeria may be as a country today, they are a thousand per cent better off than they would have been had the British not been there and left some of their imprint upon those people.

<<I'd say the Swedes and Danes have managed to do better for themselves than the English and the Scots. >>

I'm not sure that the differences between England and Denmark are anything but marginal - - a smaller population is easier to manage than a larger one, but I'm a big admirer of the Danes and their country.  England got the shit bombed out of it in the war, whereas the Danes were peacefully occupied by Germany and Sweden never even got into the war.  Actually, they're both really great people although obviously there's no doubt that the British have accomplished a lot more on the world stage.

<<Everyone has cleaned up their act since WWII, except the US, which seems to have gotten worse. I would attribute this more to the loathsome and manipulative Dulles Brothers, since most every foreign policy mess can be laid in their laps: Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, most of Central America and South America: if it sucked and it happened since 1944, it is invariably the fault of crap the Dulles Bros. pulled off.>>

The Dulles brothers were representatives of a class and of that class's interests.   That class was a nefarious influence in the U.S.A. but I don't think it started with the Dulles Bros.  It probably goes back to the U.S. Civil War and the industrialization of the North-Eastern States.  That's when the bastards really got their foot in the door and began to subvert what was intended to be a democratic government.

<<When people ask what nationality I am, I say, "The last name is Saxon, but I am also part Dutch, Irish, French and Choctaw." I don't think I would use the word "British".>>

I think when people ask that question, they want to know what your "race" or ethnic background is, so I usually just say "Jewish," cuz that's the information they're after.  Sometimes I say, "I usta be Jewish but I quit," but only to other Jews, who know what I mean.  I think it's great that you said "Choctaw" because up here when a guy has Indian blood, usually he just says "Indian" like he either had no pride in his ancestry or he just didn't care enough to know. 

[Xavier_Onassis]

I agree that the Dulles were representative of their class interests, but they were the ones, far more than any others who engineered the imposition of the Shah, the death and disappearance squads in Central and South America, the creation of the Muslim Brotherhood to oppose Nasser, the Vietnam War, and all sorts of financial manipulations to screw the rest of the world out of its money and cause it to gravitate towards the coffers of their favorite banking establishments. They were in cahoots with the British, by the way. The ruling class of the US has been best buddies since the days of JP Morgan before WWI.

The British ruling class benefited immensely from colonialism. The British people got, as usual, the dirty end of the stick.

The other night PBS had this show about how great Winston Churchill was, with his granddaughter as narrator. It was the most gawdawful puff piece I have ever seen. Sir Winston was presented as a Major Hero of the Human Race. His hideous disaster at Gallipoli, which resulted in thousands of dead and maimed Anzac troops was sort of glided over, it was barely mentioned in passing that he was disliked for this, and left the Admiralty sort of like on vacation. I wanted to throw sharp objects at the screen. What an utterly snobbish, hateful bitch his granddaughter is!

Churchill was an effective leader during WWII against the Nazis. He was a good writer, but somewhat full of himself, and a goddamned elitist to the core. I think you can say the same about the British elite during the colonial period. I know lots of English and Scots, none of them nobility, and they are decent people, really. But the British ruling class is like the American ruling class. Never forget that they are congenital liars, and when they come a-visiting, always hide the good silver.

My Choctaw ancestor was a 6 foot tall medicine woman named Mourning Tree (as in Willow) Frazier. Her father was metis, her mother was Choctaw, and she was the closest thing to a doctor on the Ft Washita Reservation, which was decommissioned in 1859, when the Comanches stopped raiding that part of Oklahoma. She married a New England great-great-great- (not exactly sure of how many greats here) grandfather of mine who came with his wife as missionaries in the late 1830's. The wife died and he married Mourning Tree.

His grandson was one of the riders in the mob that stole the Oklahoma Territorial records from Guthrie and brought them to Oklahoma City.

[Michael Tee]

My dad remembers the entire family sitting around the radio in the darkest days of WWII waiting to hear Winston Churchill, and the confidence and the inspiration that flowed from him.  In the album "I Can Hear It Now," a compilation of radio broadcasts from 1933 to 1945 edited by Fred Friendly and Edward R. Murrow, which I listened to endlessly as a teenager, one of the announcers said of Churchill, "He mobilized the English language and sent it into battle."  Personally, I've never heard or read any other speeches that were as eloquent, as simple and as inspiring.  Churchill never lost his courage, even when all seemed lost.  He typified the "British bulldog," civilized and polite on the outside but hard as nails on the inside, capable of ripping out your throat.  There was no way he was ever going to lose his cool, or his ironic sense of humour, and there was no way he was going to give in to the Nazi bastards.  Sure, Gallipoli was a mistake, but it was an honest mistake, undertaken in good faith, it wasn't a crime the way Viet Nam and Iraq and so many other U.S. campaigns are just crimes.

I agree with you in general about the English upper classes, many of whom supported and contributed to Hitler's early successes because of their fear of "Bolshevism," but there were always honourable exceptions, who recognized the threat of fascism, if not at the outset, at least very early, Churchill and Anthony Eden among them.

We have a Winston Churchill Collegiate (high school) a Winston Churchill Blvd. and a statue of Winston Churchill on the front grounds of our Toronto City Hall.  I don't think many of our recent immigrants know or care who Winston Churchill was, but to me, my family (with the exception of my kids) and friends, Winston Churchill was by far the greatest statesman of the 20th Century and probably the preceding and subsequent centuries too.  My friends' son was named Winston in his honour.  Winston Churchill stood like a rock in Hitler's path and single-handedly changed the course of history.

Your family history reminds me of a New Yorker cartoon of a family tree, no words at all, but just cartoon portraits at the tips of all the branches - -Dutch, Spanish, Puritans, frontiersmen, Indians, metis, Continental soldiers, Union cavalry, Confederate sharpshooters, Southern belles, flappers, Rosie the Riveter, WWII G.I.s and finally at the very bottom some innocuous, happy-looking nerd with eyeglasses and a slightly receding hairline.   Your country certainly has had an interesting history, and it's reflected in the bloodlines of its people.