ANOTHER reason why John Insane won't be debating much with Obama

[Michael Tee]

and also who the media's really protecting . . .

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/22/mccain-gets-history-of-th_n_114419.html

Insane either LIED or GOT VERY, VERY CONFUSED when he tried to tell CBS that the so-called "Anbar Awakening" was the result of the "surge," when in fact it had begun long before the surge began.

Also very interesting that CBS cut this confused or lying response from its broadcast of the interview.  Despite the so-called media bias for Obama.

Hmmmmm.

[Amianthus]

The "An-bar Awakening" was announced in March of 2007, and the initial talks between the group and American military was held in late November 2006. The "Iraq Surge" was announced in late 2006, and began in March 2007.

I don't see how either one could be said to have "begun long before" the other.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Regardless of whatever competencies and doubts McCain and Obama demonstrate, I am pretty sure that there will be some sort of "debate".

By which I do not mean a real debate, just a forum where both candidates will be asked questions by a moderator, newspersons, or maybe even voters in the same place and at the same time.

Most of what is said will be irrelevant to performance as president, but it will be given great scrutiny, far beyond what should be the case on any logical planet. It would be suitable comedy, for example on the hypothetical Planet Vulcan, and on the theoretical Klingon Homeworld as well, but not because of logic there so much as a lack of dangerous weapons.

I would say that a logical president is a better choice than one who is adept at the bat'leth or the qhonDoq. But a president should be good at dealing with other humans, and most humans are not all that logical.

Would we select a better president if collegiate style debates were given, and logic was the determining factor?
Would we select a better president if they were to duke it out with bat'leths?

I am pretty sure the armed conflict would get higher ratings, but I doubt that either process will be as truly determinative as alleged. It is the importance that the public gives these events that counts.

But I am still sure that there will be "debates". Common Cause and the League of Women Voters and others will put on to much pressure for this to be avoided. The presidential "debate" has become a tradition. Any candidate who refuses will be considered a 'chicken', suitable for being rolled in the Colonel's secret spices and extra-crispy frying process.

[Michael Tee]

<<The "An-bar Awakening" was announced in March of 2007, and the initial talks between the group and American military was held in late November 2006. The "Iraq Surge" was announced in late 2006, and began in March 2007.

<<I don't see how either one could be said to have "begun long before" the other.>>

Did you read the article I linked to?  I'm not going back to it, but it seemed to me that a good case was made for the fact that the surge had absolutely nothing to do with the "Anbar Awakening" and could not possibly have done so, since the phenomenon itself was mentioned, if not by name, long before the surge was even proposed.  Yet McCain claimed that the surge was responsible for the AA.

[Amianthus]

Did you read the article I linked to?  I'm not going back to it, but it seemed to me that a good case was made for the fact that the surge had absolutely nothing to do with the "Anbar Awakening" and could not possibly have done so, since the phenomenon itself was mentioned, if not by name, long before the surge was even proposed.  Yet McCain claimed that the surge was responsible for the AA.

Yes. Just because you rely on one (unsourced) line in that article as evidence, I do not. There are many articles online about it, and most reference the dates I mentioned. The group that claimed the name in March 2007 was formed subsequent to talks between a number of sheiks and the US military in November 2006 - which also happens to be the same time frame that the surge was being proposed.

[Michael Tee]

   Here's McCain in his Katie Couric interview:   <<I don't know how you respond to something that is as-- such a false depiction of what actually happened. Colonel McFarlane [phonetic] was contacted by one of the major Sunni sheiks. Because of the surge we were able to go out and protect that sheik and others. And it began the Anbar awakening. I mean, that's just a matter of history. >>

[Col. MacFarlane is now a one-star general]  from the Ackerman blog:  <<Here he [MacFarlane, the very guy referred to by McCain in the Couric interview, above] is explaining what was going on to Pam Hess, then of UPI, on September 29, 2006, at least two months before Bush decided upon the surge, and about three before he announced it to the public:

    <<With respect to the violence between the Sunnis and the al Qaeda -- actually, I would disagree with the assessment that the al Qaeda have the upper hand. That was true earlier this year when some of the sheikhs began to step forward and some of the insurgent groups began to fight against al Qaeda. The insurgent groups, the nationalist groups, were pretty well beaten by al Qaeda.

    <<This is a different phenomena that's going on right now [Sept. 29/06]. I think that it's not so much the insurgent groups that are fighting al Qaeda, it's the -- well, it used to be the fence-sitters, the tribal leaders, are stepping forward and cooperating with the Iraqi security forces against al Qaeda, and it's had a very different result. I think al Qaeda has been pushed up against the ropes by this, and now they're finding themselves trapped between the coalition and ISF on the one side, and the people on the other. >>

So it's pretty clear to me that the so-called "Anbar Awakening" was pretty much underway before the start of the surge.  McCain is full of shit claiming the surge was the reason for the "Anbar Awakening."                             

[Xavier_Onassis]

Sounds as though you might be right there, Tee. But whoever started the Anbar Awakening is not an issue that is likely to garner or lose votes. Most Americans probably think the Anbar Awakening is something a harried person might eat for breakfast. Caffeine, Vitamins and Granola: "MMMmmm! It'll make your day!"

[Michael Tee]

<<Most Americans probably think the Anbar Awakening is something a harried person might eat for breakfast. Caffeine, Vitamins and Granola: "MMMmmm! It'll make your day!">>

They tried it out in focus groups, but it fell flat.  Most of the Americans tested felt cheated because they were expecting a chocolate bar in the box.  The Anbar.

What's gonna be really funny will be after the last G.I. leaves Baghdad (ideally on the skids of a helicopter, but I think by now they've figured out the optics of it all) when the Awakened Anbars all train their new U.S. and Israeli weapons on America's hand-picked Shi'ite puppet government and blast the living shit out of them, bringing everything back full circle to where it all started - - Sunni secular government by military dictatorship, the only thing that holds the country together whether the Iranians like it or not.  Then the parents of the 4,000 dead hillbillies can scratch their collective ass and wonder, WTF was this really all for anyway?  Hopefully, when someone finally grows a pair and comes looking for Bush and Cheney with an indictment, it'll be from the International Criminal Court at the Hague and the new administration will have enough respect for international law to turn the two of them and the rest of their criminal gang over for trial.

[hnumpah]

Then the parents of the 4,000 dead hillbillies...

Do you mind? I mean, really, I can understand you don't like Americans very much - believe me, as far as I'm concerned, the feelings are reciprocated - but this is really a bunch of horseshit. I don't agree with the war in Iraq, either, but I can pretty much guarantee you that every American soldier there is there out of a sense of duty, because he believes in what he's doing. They may be misguided, and they may be wrong, but they're putting their asses on the line for something they believe in. Haven't seen you doing that much lately.

You're starting to sound as bad as Knutey.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I don't think it is fair to refer to American soldiers as dead hillbillies, either. This war, like all wars, is a tragedy for everyone who is killed, wounded or driven from their home.

[Michael Tee]

hnumpah sez:  <<Do you mind? I mean, really, I can understand you don't like Americans very much - believe me, as far as I'm concerned, the feelings are reciprocated - but this is really a bunch of horseshit. I don't agree with the war in Iraq, either, but I can pretty much guarantee you that every American soldier there is there out of a sense of duty, because he believes in what he's doing.>>

Didn't realize they were all such idealists.  They sure coulda fooled me. 

Sure, lumping them all together as "4,000 dead hillbillies" is grossly unfair.  So's killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

<<but I can pretty much guarantee you that every American soldier there is there out of a sense of duty, because he believes in what he's doing.>>

I don't give a shit WHAT he believes in, they've killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians they had no right to kill.  They've tortured tens of thousands they had no right to torture.  They invaded a sovereign state they had no right to invade.   To steal oil they had no right to take.  They're a bunch of fucking war criminals participating in a massive international war crime, so maybe they better find something else to believe in.  How about trying to wrap their pea-sized brains around concepts like THE U.N. CHARTER and the 4TH GENEVA CONVENTION for example?  I'm sick and tired of the excuses people make for these criminals - - they really believe in invading other countries at will, they really believe in water-boarding.  Fuck them and fuck what they really believe in.   I bet the Nazis really believed in the Master Race, really believed in Zyklon B.  Who gives a rat's ass WHAT they "really believed" when their actions are criminal and outrageous?  You Americans will always give yourselves a pass, the rest of the world doesn't and never will.

XO sez:  <<I don't think it is fair to refer to American soldiers as dead hillbillies, either.>>


OF COURSE it isn't fair!!  It isn't fair to drop white phosphorus on civilians either.  It isn't fair for the world's mightiest and onliest super-power to make up phony grievances against a tiny, oil-rich country so they can invade it.  It isn't fair to waterboard a helpless prisoner or stick batons up his ass.  It isn't fair to drop JDAMS on residential areas.   Lotta things in life aren't fair.

[Xavier_Onassis]

OF COURSE it isn't fair!!  It isn't fair to drop white phosphorus on civilians either.  It isn't fair for the world's mightiest and onliest super-power to make up phony grievances against a tiny, oil-rich country so they can invade it.  It isn't fair to waterboard a helpless prisoner or stick batons up his ass.  It isn't fair to drop JDAMS on residential areas.   Lotta things in life aren't fair.

================================
Well, who couldn't agree with that?

However, these are examples of US government policy being unfair.

Your calling KIA US troops "dead hillbillies" is Michael Tee being unfair. If they are hillbillies, that isn't their fault. My daughter was born in Buckhannon, West Virginia. We moved when she was two, when I took a job elsewhere, but when she tells people where she was born, they kid her about being a 'hillbilly'.

The Army is probably the best job opportunity for any HS graduate that is bored with Upshur County and can't find a job there.

I don't think MT being unfair cancels out waterboarding.
MT has control over being unfair, even if he doesn't have control over Juniorbush & Co.

[Michael Tee]

I don't think MT being unfair cancels out waterboarding.
MT has control over being unfair, even if he doesn't have control over Juniorbush & Co.

====================================================================

Sometimes when you see such gigantic unfairness on such a huge scale, all you can do is right the balance a tiny infinitesimal bit by your own little insignificant piece of unfairness going in the opposite direction.  It's all you can do.  You can spit at the President of the United States of America even if the wind blows it back in your face and nobody even knows that you spat.  You can spit on the minions he uses to execute his criminal policies.  It's not much, but it's still better than doing nothing.  Not by much, but still better.

<<The Army is probably the best job opportunity for any HS graduate that is bored with Upshur County and can't find a job there.>>

Even the dumbest hick has to know that his solution to boredom and unemployment means participating in killing, torture and massive destruction of an entire society.  I'll bet many of them even realize it's all about the oil.  You may think you're excusing their bad choices, but you're really patronizing them.  I'm sure even in hillbilly society there are plenty of them who can tell right from wrong and would refuse on moral principles to have anything to do with the execution of Bush's criminal plans.  No matter how "bored" they might be with Upshur County.

[Amianthus]

My daughter was born in Buckhannon, West Virginia.

I've been hunting near there. Nice place.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Even the dumbest hick has to know that his solution to boredom and unemployment means participating in killing, torture and massive destruction of an entire society.  I'll bet many of them even realize it's all about the oil.  You may think you're excusing their bad choices, but you're really patronizing them.  I'm sure even in hillbilly society there are plenty of them who can tell right from wrong and would refuse on moral principles to have anything to do with the execution of Bush's criminal plans.  No matter how "bored" they might be with Upshur County.
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For centuries, the military has been glorified as a wonderful career. Observe how no one erects statues to electrical engineers, mechanics, plowboys or taco assembly persons.

I agree that there are doubtless many people in Upshur that are aware that the Army is about killing, but surely you are aware that many Americans thought that invading Iraq was to make everyone safer and to spread democracy. Next thing you know, then Ay-rabs will crash one of those planes into the Upshur County Courthouse.