Author Topic: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?  (Read 13150 times)

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Stray Pooch

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What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« on: July 26, 2008, 10:06:34 PM »
Can't be.  That war can't be won.  WAIT A MINUTE!  It says here that terror bombings will GO ON FOR SOME TIME, but that the major combat is over.  CRAP.  So THAT's what winning means.  I wish the heck our side woulda come up with a definition like that YEARS ago.

Oh wait . . .

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080726/ap_on_an/iraq_winning_the_war

Analysis: US now winning Iraq war that seemed lost By ROBERT BURNS and ROBERT H. REID, Associated Press Writers

BAGHDAD - The United States is now winning the war that two years ago seemed lost. Limited, sometimes sharp fighting and periodic terrorist bombings in Iraq are likely to continue, possibly for years. But the Iraqi government and the U.S. now are able to shift focus from mainly combat to mainly building the fragile beginnings of peace — a transition that many found almost unthinkable as recently as one year ago.

Despite the occasional bursts of violence, Iraq has reached the point where the insurgents, who once controlled whole cities, no longer have the clout to threaten the viability of the central government.

That does not mean the war has ended or that U.S. troops have no role in Iraq. It means the combat phase finally is ending, years past the time when President Bush optimistically declared it had. The new phase focuses on training the Iraqi army and police, restraining the flow of illicit weaponry from Iran, supporting closer links between Baghdad and local governments, pushing the integration of former insurgents into legitimate government jobs and assisting in rebuilding the economy.

Scattered battles go on, especially against al-Qaida holdouts north of Baghdad. But organized resistance, with the steady drumbeat of bombings, kidnappings, assassinations and ambushes that once rocked the capital daily, has all but ceased.

This amounts to more than a lull in the violence. It reflects a fundamental shift in the outlook for the Sunni minority, which held power under Saddam Hussein. They launched the insurgency five years ago. They now are either sidelined or have switched sides to cooperate with the Americans in return for money and political support.

Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, told The Associated Press this past week there are early indications that senior leaders of al-Qaida may be considering shifting their main focus from Iraq to the war in Afghanistan.

Ryan Crocker, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, told the AP on Thursday that the insurgency as a whole has withered to the point where it is no longer a threat to Iraq's future.

"Very clearly, the insurgency is in no position to overthrow the government or, really, even to challenge it," Crocker said. "It's actually almost in no position to try to confront it. By and large, what's left of the insurgency is just trying to hang on."

Shiite militias, notably the Mahdi Army of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, have lost their power bases in Baghdad, Basra and other major cities. An important step was the routing of Shiite extremists in the Sadr City slums of eastern Baghdad this spring — now a quiet though not fully secure district.

Al-Sadr and top lieutenants are now in Iran. Still talking of a comeback, they are facing major obstacles, including a loss of support among a Shiite population weary of war and no longer as terrified of Sunni extremists as they were two years ago.

Despite the favorable signs, U.S. commanders are leery of proclaiming victory or promising that the calm will last.

The premature declaration by the Bush administration of "Mission Accomplished" in May 2003 convinced commanders that the best public relations strategy is to promise little, and couple all good news with the warning that "security is fragile" and that the improvements, while encouraging, are "not irreversible."

Iraq still faces a mountain of problems: sectarian rivalries, power struggles within the Sunni and Shiite communities, Kurdish-Arab tensions, corruption. Any one of those could rekindle widespread fighting.

But the underlying dynamics in Iraqi society that blew up the U.S. military's hopes for an early exit, shortly after the fall of Baghdad in April 2003, have changed in important ways in recent months.

Systematic sectarian killings have all but ended in the capital, in large part because of tight security and a strategy of walling off neighborhoods purged of minorities in 2006.

That has helped establish a sense of normalcy in the streets of the capital. People are expressing a new confidence in their own security forces, which in turn are exhibiting a newfound assertiveness with the insurgency largely in retreat.

Statistics show violence at a four-year low. The monthly American death toll appears to be at its lowest of the war — four killed in action so far this month as of Friday, compared with 66 in July a year ago. From a daily average of 160 insurgent attacks in July 2007, the average has plummeted to about two dozen a day this month. On Wednesday the nationwide total was 13.

Beyond that, there is something in the air in Iraq this summer.

In Baghdad, parks are filled every weekend with families playing and picnicking with their children. That was unthinkable only a year ago, when the first, barely visible signs of a turnaround emerged.

Now a moment has arrived for the Iraqis to try to take those positive threads and weave them into a lasting stability.

The questions facing both Americans and Iraqis are: What kinds of help will the country need from the U.S. military, and for how long? The questions will take on greater importance as the U.S. presidential election nears, with one candidate pledging a troop withdrawal and the other insisting on staying.

Iraqi authorities have grown dependent on the U.S. military after more than five years of war. While they are aiming for full sovereignty with no foreign troops on their soil, they do not want to rush. In a similar sense, the Americans fear that after losing more than 4,100 troops, the sacrifice could be squandered.

U.S. commanders say a substantial American military presence will be needed beyond 2009. But judging from the security gains that have been sustained over the first half of this year — as the Pentagon withdrew five Army brigades sent as reinforcements in 2007 — the remaining troops could be used as peacekeepers more than combatants.

As a measure of the transitioning U.S. role, Maj. Gen. Jeffery Hammond says that when he took command of American forces in the Baghdad area about seven months ago he was spending 80 percent of his time working on combat-related matters and about 20 percent on what the military calls "nonkinetic" issues, such as supporting the development of Iraqi government institutions and humanitarian aid.

Now Hammond estimates those percentage have been almost reversed. For several hours one recent day, for example, Hammond consulted on water projects with a Sunni sheik in the Radwaniyah area of southwest Baghdad, then spent time with an Iraqi physician/entrepreneur in the Dora district of southern Baghdad — an area, now calm, that in early 2007 was one of the capital's most violent zones.

"We're getting close to something that looks like an end to mass violence in Iraq," says Stephen Biddle, an analyst at the Council of Foreign Relations who has advised Petraeus on war strategy. Biddle is not ready to say it's over, but he sees the U.S. mission shifting from fighting the insurgents to keeping the peace.

Although Sunni and Shiite extremists are still around, they have surrendered the initiative and have lost the support of many ordinary Iraqis. That can be traced to an altered U.S. approach to countering the insurgency — a Petraeus-driven move to take more U.S. troops off their big bases and put them in Baghdad neighborhoods where they mixed with ordinary Iraqis and built a new level of trust.

Army Col. Tom James, a brigade commander who is on his third combat tour in Iraq, explains the new calm this way:

"We've put out the forest fire. Now we're dealing with pop-up fires."

It's not the end of fighting. It looks like the beginning of a perilous peace.

Maj. Gen. Ali Hadi Hussein al-Yaseri, the chief of patrol police in the capital, sees the changes.

"Even eight months ago, Baghdad was not today's Baghdad," he says.

___

EDITOR'S NOTE — Robert Burns is AP's chief military reporter, and Robert Reid is AP's chief of bureau in Baghdad. Reid has covered the war from his post in Iraq since the U.S. invasion in March 2003. Burns, based in Washington, has made 21 reporting trips to Iraq; on his latest during July, Burns spent nearly three weeks in central and northern Iraq, observing military operations and interviewing both U.S. and Iraqi officers.


Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Michael Tee

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2008, 10:58:40 PM »
Well, I certainly hope they're wrong, but I'm getting a very depressing feeling that they might be right. 

I would have to blame al Qaeda for the loss, because in pissing off the local sheikhs, they naturally drove them into an alliance of sorts with the invaders.  A lesson of hindsight - - when you come into another man's turf to help him out in a battle with his neighbours, you have to remember that you are still his guest, and you have to act as becomes a guest.  Particularly when the invaders' power is so much greater than your own and your host's power.  Beyond that, you have the doubly unfortunate schism that separates Shi'a from Sunni.   The imperialist powers have always been able to exploit these divisions, Sunni vs Shi'ite and even in the case of al Qaeda in Iraq, secular from religious Sunni.  The Muslims appear to remain incapable of bridging these gaps, no matter how obvious it is that they open the region to divide-and-conquer tactics and give the "multinationals" a free hand in disposing of the natural resources of the nation.

It's moderately interesting to observe, in all these detailed expositions of the local power struggles, how little (if any) coverage goes to the fate of the nation's oil wells.  The latest we have heard is that the draft legislation now almost certain to be passed, gives foreign (i.e., U.S. and British) oil producers up to 75% of the profits on oil pumped from fields already in production and even bigger rights in new oil fields, if any, brought into production in the future.  These numbers are unprecedented in the modern Middle East and should be compared with the Saddam-era laws, which barred foreigners from participating in the exploitation of either producing or future producing wells.  The Iraqi Oil Ministry had for years been equal to the task of developing new resources and operating the existing resources.  This is shaping up to be by far the biggest rip-off of a country's natural resources since the end ot WWII.

Stray Pooch

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2008, 11:00:46 PM »
Well, I certainly hope they're wrong, but I'm getting a very depressing feeling that they might be right. 


I get that you are not American.  I get that you are anti-American.  But under what flaming insanity would you be rooting for Al Quaeda?   A US victory in this war is nothing more than the destruction of the Ba'athist regime which killed its own people and the beginnings (it is hoped) of representative democracy in Iraq.  What the hell is wrong with that?  Rubbing a little crap in the nose of terrorists doesn't hurt either.   If the Iraqis are able to toss out the extremists and get a stable, democratic government in place, wh is that a loss?   Because America ends up looking good?  Because the Bush strategy inally paid off?  Hell if Barack Obama takes Hillary for a running mate and they manage to stablize the middle east with diplomatic measures and flowers in guns I'll kiss both of their asses on Capital Hill and dance with Nancy Pelosi while singing "Oh Canada" and eating a Vegan meal.   I could care less which side gets the credit as long as the end result is good.

I know.  You're a Communist who hasn't gotten over the failure of Communism in the USSR by death and China by rampant capitalism.  But are you so wedded to the dinosaur of Marxism that you can't see reason?

It's good that the people of the USSR rejected Communism.  It would have been a shame, and a necessity, to nuke the bastards had they not. 
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

fatman

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2008, 11:21:27 PM »
I could care less which side gets the credit as long as the end result is good.

It's too bad that sensibilities like this one don't exist in politics anymore, or seemingly within the people either.

Michael Tee

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2008, 01:34:45 AM »
<<I get that you are not American.  I get that you are anti-American. >>

You can stop right there, because that's just more right-wing bullshit.  Anyone who is opposed to American militarism and aggression is "anti-American."   How you guys manage to conflate "Americanism" with American aggression and militarism is one of the more interesting facets of the culture wars.  But I don't buy it and I hope nobody else except right-wing extremist nuts like you buy into it.  I'm not anti-American by any stretch of the imagination.

<<But under what flaming insanity would you be rooting for Al Quaeda?  >>

The U.S.A. today is under the control of the same type of fascists and militarists as Imperial Japan was in the 1930s and 1940s, even right down to the approval of torture as a legitimate means of waging war.  As such, it's the greatest threat to world peace, the puffed-up "menace" of so-called "Islamofascism" notwithstanding.  To anyone who doubts this, I ask you to compare the civilian death counts in Vietnam, Panama City, Iraq and Afghanistan with the total civilian death count of all "Islamofascist" attacks to date.  It's much more important that the U.S. suffer another humiliating defeat as in Viet Nam in order to discredit and disempower the fascists and militarists who have seized power than it is that al Qaeda be defeated.  In a nutshell, the U.S. under its present crypto-fascist leadership is by far the greater threat to peace and the greater killer of innocent civilians than al Qaeda could ever hope to be.

<<A US victory in this war is nothing more than the destruction of the Ba'athist regime which killed its own people . . . >>

What a load of utter crap.  Please show a little more respect for the intelligence of the people you are corresponding with.  When in recorded history did the U.S.A. ever give a shit about any regime which "killed its own people?"  It has consistently SUPPORTED regimes and assisted them in killing their own people, whether that regime was Nationalist China, Indonesia, Guatemala, Iran, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, the Dominican Republic, Argentina . . . well it's just too bad I don't have all night.  But PLEEEEZE . . . spare me this "they killed their own people" bullshit.  Honestly, Pooch, who do you really think you are fooling?

<< . . . and the beginnings (it is hoped) of representative democracy in Iraq.  >>

Right.  Like they really give a shit about "representative democracy."  They don't even have it in the U.S. of fucking A., where Albert GORE got more votes than Bush, who "won" the "election."  If they really cared about "representative democracy" in Iraq, why the hell did they do everything they could to suppress the democratically elected government of the Palestinians?  Why did they support the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iran?  Why do they support the dictatorships of Egypt and Jordan?

<<What the hell is wrong with that? >>

Get serious.  The U.S. is as interested in representative democracy in Iraq as the Colombian drug cartel is in mental health in America.  I wonder if there is one person in a hundred outside the U.S.A. who really believes this is all about "representative democracy" in Iraq.  For the 999th time, this is about oil and nothing but oil. 

<< Rubbing a little crap in the nose of terrorists doesn't hurt either. >>

The "terrorists" whose noses you want to rub crap on are Arabs who don't want Americans in their region subverting their governments and occupying their lands any more than you want Arabs in America subverting your government and occupying your land.

<<If the Iraqis are able to toss out the extremists and get a stable, democratic government in place, wh is that a loss?  >>

How is that any of your business?  And who the hell are you to invade this complex and divided society, kill hundreds of thousands of its citizens in the hopes of ultimately imposing YOUR system on it?  More to the point, what are the odds they will get a "stable democratic government in place" and what are the odds they will get a corrupted non-democratic puppet government in place that will sell out the national patrimony to American and British oil majors? 

You are living in a world of pure fantasy.  There is no intention whatsoever on the part of any American policy maker to create a "stable democratic government" in Iraq.  America has never started a war against any country out of a desire to impose stable democratic government on it.  The absurdity of the idea is easily seen by counting how many other countries in the world "needed" democracy at the same time that Iraq did, and yet were never attacked, invaded and occupied by the U.S.A. so that they could enjoy the blessings of democracy.  The very concept is idiotic, apart from being a blatant violation of the Charter of the United Nations.

<< Because America ends up looking good?  >>

Oh, yeah.  Just how "good" do you think America has ended up looking so far?  And how close do you think you are to a "stable democratic" government in Iraq?  If you want a clue as to what kind of government Iraq is really going to get, just take a look at some of the oil deals that have already been inked with the Kurds and what's already in the pipeline with the "stable democratic" government to come.
http://www.iraqoilreport.com/

<<Because the Bush strategy finally paid off? >>

Obviously, it hasn't "finally paid off."  If it had, what are all those troops still doing there?  Don't you have ANY common sense?  What does the continued presence of the U.S. army tell you about the great "success" of the surge?

<< Hell if Barack Obama takes Hillary for a running mate and they manage to stablize the middle east with diplomatic measures and flowers in guns I'll kiss both of their asses on Capital Hill and dance with Nancy Pelosi while singing "Oh Canada" and eating a Vegan meal.   I could care less which side gets the credit as long as the end result is good.>>

Yeah, well what if the end result is BAD?  THAT'S where you better direct your attention and figure out whose asses to kiss and who to dance with while singing "O Canada."

<<I know.  You're a Communist who hasn't gotten over the failure of Communism in the USSR by death and China by rampant capitalism.  But are you so wedded to the dinosaur of Marxism that you can't see reason?>>

My communism has about as much to do with this issue as your Mormonism.  I'm not even going to go there.

<<It's good that the people of the USSR rejected Communism.  It would have been a shame, and a necessity, to nuke the bastards had they not.>>

Jeeeziz.  Another big-talking American.  You had about 50 years to nuke "the bastards," but never managed to get around to it in all that time.  Were you maybe a little scared?  That they could absorb the casualties of a nuclear exchange, but that you Americans, who punked out during the Hungarian Revolt, who punked out at the Bay of Pigs, who punked out of Viet Nam, couldn't?  Yeah, tell me, Big Shot, how you coulda, woulda, shoulda nuked the U.S.S.R.  I'd really like to hear this.

Stray Pooch

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2008, 03:06:45 AM »
You can stop right there, because that's just more right-wing bullshit.  Anyone who is opposed to American militarism and aggression is "anti-American."   How you guys manage to conflate "Americanism" with American aggression and militarism is one of the more interesting facets of the culture wars.  But I don't buy it and I hope nobody else except right-wing extremist nuts like you buy into it.  I'm not anti-American by any stretch of the imagination.

No I'm not gonna stop right there because you are both NOT American (which is neither right-wing bullshit nor incorrect - it's just a fact.  I'm not Canadian, either.)  and you ARE anti-American.  As for extremist nuts, you are the only one of the two of us who fits that description - and you fit it well. 

The U.S.A. today is under the control of the same type of fascists and militarists as yada yada yada

Extremist crap.  Why even bother to post it.


What a load of utter crap.  Please show a little more respect for the intelligence of the people you are corresponding with. 

I'm showing you exactly the respect you are due.


They don't even have it in the U.S. of fucking A., where Albert GORE got more votes than Bush, who "won" the "election." 

Which is exactly my point.  George Bush won the election because we are NOT in a DEMOCRACY.  We are in a Republic that is governed by a REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.  If you don't understand our constitution, try to get a halfway decent understanding of our election process before you use it to refute what it proves.  The majority of states in this country elected Bush president.  He won legally, he won constitutionally, he won like every other President since Washington did.  (Yes, the methodology has changed over the years, but all within the scope of the constitution under rights reserved to the individual states.)   Representative Democracy as we know it in this country will not survive much longer, more's the pity.  But it does exist now.  That tired old argument that Bush lost in 2001 is no more true or relevant now than it was then.

For the 999th time, this is about oil and nothing but oil. 

Baloney.


The "terrorists" whose noses you want to rub crap on are Arabs who don't want Americans in their region subverting their governments and occupying their lands any more than you want Arabs in America subverting your government and occupying your land.

Tough beans.  They are still terrorists.  I really don't care what their objections are.  I just want them all dead, preferrably in a very ugly way. 

How is that any of your business?  And who the hell are you to invade this complex and divided society, kill hundreds of thousands of its citizens in the hopes of ultimately imposing YOUR system on it?  More to the point, what are the odds they will get a "stable democratic government in place" and what are the odds they will get a corrupted non-democratic puppet government in place that will sell out the national patrimony to American and British oil majors? 

We're the guys who got the planes in our towers.  We don't buy off on the idea that only 19 men planned this without support from others.  We reserve the right to defend our land, in the way that WE see fit, from attacks like that and from any potential FUTURE threat.  THAT is why it's our business.  It is, of course, none of YOUR business until and unless we invade Canada. 

Obviously, it hasn't "finally paid off."  If it had, what are all those troops still doing there?  Don't you have ANY common sense?  What does the continued presence of the U.S. army tell you about the great "success" of the surge?

You're the idiot who said you have the depressing feeling that we are, in fact, winning.  Don't you have any common sense? 

Yeah, well what if the end result is BAD?  THAT'S where you better direct your attention and figure out whose asses to kiss and who to dance with while singing "O Canada."

An American victory, which is the topic we are discussing, is not bad.  A stable middle east, which is the specific result of such a victory I referred to in the point to which you responded with this point, is not bad.  Both are very good.  If those achievements occur, I will not care who caused them, what policies brought them about, or how good or bad it makes my party, the Dems or the Crazy Canadian on this site look.  If these things do not come about, I will blame the Dems, sing all four verses of "The Star-Spangled Banner" with emphasis on the third verse that drives libs most crazy, kick Obama's and Hillary's asses OFF capital hill, body-slam Nancy Pelosi and eat steak and potatoes and hold the damn vegetables!

My communism has about as much to do with this issue as your Mormonism.  I'm not even going to go there.

No.  The Mormons were not in control of Iraq.  The Ba'athists - supported by the Soviets - were.  Your communism does, in fact, relate to the topic.  You may feel free to refuse to discuss it.  But keep a good supply on bananas on hand.  I understand 800 lb gorillas in the room like those things.

Jeeeziz.  Another big-talking American.  You had about 50 years to nuke "the bastards," but never managed to get around to it in all that time.  Were you maybe a little scared?  That they could absorb the casualties of a nuclear exchange, but that you Americans, who punked out during the Hungarian Revolt, who punked out at the Bay of Pigs, who punked out of Viet Nam, couldn't?  Yeah, tell me, Big Shot, how you coulda, woulda, shoulda nuked the U.S.S.R.  I'd really like to hear this.

We were, of course, aware of (though we obviously overestimated) the nuclear and military capabilities of the USSR.  We didn't nuke them because it never became necessary.  The only time they ever really gave us a possible reason to engage in a nuclear conflict they got scared away by JFK and that was that.  Of course, that's really a moot point, isn't it?  After all, the USSR no longer exists after a scant 70 years and the US still does after over three times as long.  So tell me, Big Shot, how does your Communist Utopia stand up to our Capitalist wasteland, huh?  Where is the achievement that Communism promised?  Where is the "power of the workers" that Marx promised?  It was, in fact, a worker's revolt in Poland that started the downfall of the "worker's paradise" that was the myth of Communism.  Cuba is a joke and China is now Communist in name only, and they have to kill their own students and other people to hold down revolution. 

Where is an actual, successful Communist "worker's paradise," huh?  China governs the largest population in the world (except maybe India) and the USSR had another huge chunk of folks.  So billions have lived under Communism, yet it has NEVER worked.  Communism has proven incapable of governing a people, or of providing equality for workers.  Communism has proven unable to produce quality goods, decent living standards or any kind of personal freedom.  Communism has failed over and over while Capitalism has provided wealth, security, stability and technical innovation for centuries.  Even the rise of Chinese power in the 21st century has come about because they are embracing Capitalism. 

Face it, your pet philosophy is an abject failure IN PRACTICE - not in theory.  Capitalism works IN PRACTICE - not in theory.  You'll whine about how capitalism and so-called "American Imperialism" exploits the masses.  Yet the masses are begging to get into America - legally or otherwise - as loudly as the masses begged to get OUT of the USSR, the PRC and Cuba.  Because Capitalism is HOPE.  Communism is resignation.  People would rather be poor in America than be under any Communist regime, where they will be much poorer.  They know in America they have the opportunity to move up.  Capitalism teaches that effort, responsibility and risk bring great rewards.  Communism teaches that everyone should think, act, and work the same, and nobody should want more, because everyone is equal.  And it fails, again and again, it fails.  It doesn't work, and it never will.

You keep talking about the US being "afraid."  Just keep talking.  The US is still here.  Communism isn't.

Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Michael Tee

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2008, 03:53:15 AM »
Communism in the form of the Communist Party of China is alive and well.  It has brought the Chinese people out of the depths of foreign domination to the world's foremost economic engine in just sixty years since 1948. 

Russian communism had its faults, sure, but in the 1930s it was the world's fastest-growing economy.  WWII took a big toll on Russia as on Britain, and I don't think the subsequent collapse of Russia as an empire is any more indicative of the "failure" of communism than the collapse of the British Empire indicates the "failure" of capitalism.  You read what you want to read into those events.  Russia is rebuilding a powerful state-owned energy corporation, which does not indicate to me that communism was all that big a failure.  It is going to sell $5 billion worth of man-portable anti-aircraft systems, T-90 battle tanks and other armaments to Venezuela to help protect it from the U.S.A. and its Colombian proxies.  Venezuela, Cuba and other Latin American countries are still working on the communist model and so far proving that it, more than any other, is capable of delivering real, tangible benefits to the people in real time.  It is YOUR system, particularly in the U.S.A. that is teetering on the brink of total economic collapse, not the Russians, not the Chinese, not the Venezuelans and not the Cubans.

However, since the U.S.A.'s aggression against Iraq was not in any way connected to the particular form of socialism that was then in force, my objections to the aggression were based on general principles of non-aggression and international law, such as the observance of treaties like the UN Charter.  So my Communism actually had nothing to do with the issues in this case.  I'm not shy about letting you know when I DO argue from Communist priniciples, but in this case I did not.  But thanks for bringing it up anyway.

"Baloney" is not usually accepted in and of itself as a valid rebuttal of anything, even less of the painfully obvious fact (obvious to anyone not committed to the crypto-fascist policies of aggression, robbery and rape that are now the U.S. standard) that the ONLY possible motive for the invasion of Iraq was the foolish hope of being able to control the second or third biggest proven oil reserves in the world.  I hope and pray that the murdering bastards who now control your country will never succeed in that objective.

It was kind of funny to watch you try to pass off the U.S. aggression as an attempt to bring "representative democracy" to Iraq and then have to admit that the U.S. itself was not actually a democracy but a "republic" governed by a representative democracy.  So a real democracy is something that is too much for you Americans to handle but you think it's alright to kill a few hundred thousand Iraqis so you can bring them its "benefits?"  That's brilliant.

<<Tough beans.  They are still terrorists.  I really don't care what their objections are.  I just want them all dead, preferrably in a very ugly way.>>

Well, THAT'S refreshing - - a little bit of honesty here.  I guess then you will understand exactly why they want to see YOU all dead, preferably in a very ugly way.   It is really interesting how Americans who pretend they can't understand "why they hate us so" harbour such violent  and callous feelings towards "them."  Did you ever think there might be some kind of connection between your ugly hateful feelings toward the Arabs and the resentment that some of them might feel in return?

<<We're the guys who got the planes in our towers.  We don't buy off on the idea that only 19 men planned this without support from others.  >>

From the IRAQIS?  You've NEVER been able to prove that and in fact to anyone who knows anything about the Middle East, it's absurd.  The al Qaeda faction are religious fanatics and the Saddam Hussein regime was strictly secular.  The two factions hated each other.

<<We reserve the right to defend our land, in the way that WE see fit, from attacks like that and from any potential FUTURE threat. >>

Try to keep it rational at least.  The Iraqis had nothing to do with "attacks like that" and nothing to do with any future attacks.  That a nation of 23 million people thousands of miles away was any kind of threat to the U.S.A. is ludicrous.  It's such a bunch of obvious bullshit that nobody believes it even in America. 

<< THAT is why it's our business.  It is, of course, none of YOUR business until and unless we invade Canada. >>

I see you are a great believer in the indifferent bystander theory, as were the neighbours of Kitty Genovese.  When you see a murder, look the other way.  Don't get involved.  It's not YOUR business until the murderer turns his attentions on you.  Figures.  Your standard of morality is just as abysmal on every other issue, why should it be any higher on this one?

<<An American victory [in a war of unprovoked aggression] which is the topic we are discussing, is not bad [even if hundreds of thousands of Iraqis had to die for it.]>>

Thank you.  You stated your philosophy well.  A more graphic example of moral rot would be almost impossible to find.

<<  A stable middle east, which is the specific result of such a victory I referred to in the point to which you responded with this point, is not bad. >>

A stable Middle East huh?  Who are you fooling with this bullshit?  The only kind of "stable Middle East" the U.S. is looking for is a totally submissive land of beaten-down natives who bend over so Uncle Sam can fuck them right up the ass for every last drop of oil they've got.  Pretend all you like that you invaded Iraq for a stable Middle East, that you killed hundreds of thousands of them for a "stable Middle East" and that your oil giants are lining up for a crack at what used to be the exclusive property of the Iraqi people for "a stable Middle East" but PLEEEEZE do not expect anyone with an ounce of intelligence to believe that crap.

<<The only time they ever really gave us a possible reason to engage in a nuclear conflict they got scared away by JFK and that was that. >>

You really DON'T know anything, do you?  Do you think it was just some kind of happy coincidence that within a year of the Soviet missiles coming out of Cuba that the American missiles were removed from Turkey?  "Scared away" my ass.  It was JFK who was scared - - scared to even tell the press that the deal was for BOTH sets of missiles to be removed.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2008, 09:41:08 AM »
I imagine that right now, at this very moment, Pooch is typing on a Chinese keyboard and wearing Chinese-made clothes as he claims that the Communists can't make or do anything right.

The Cuban missile crisis ended when JFK secretly agreed to remove bases from Turkey. It was a mutual agreement, and both sides benefited, because it made war more unlikely.

The US is hardly a capitalist state, it has many aspects of socialism, as well as a lot of monopolistic tendencies: in a truly capitalist state, you could order a Coke AND a Pepsi at the same restaurant, and it would be ILLEGAL for either Coke or Pepsi to make a deal with the owner to restrict your right of choice (as is the case in every restaurant I know of).

Iraq was obviously about oil. There was an added bonus of the possibility of forcing Iraq not to hate Israel. It was NOT about freedom and democracy. Saddam posed no threat to no one in the US.

And no, WE aren't winning in Iraq. WE are not oil companies. WE will see none of the profits. WE will, however, have to pay for the war through the nose for the cost of the war.

WE means WE the people.



McCain wants to lower corporate taxes, so WE can pay an even greater share of all WE have done for the oil companies.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

hnumpah

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2008, 10:11:15 AM »
Quote
...JFK secretly agreed to remove bases from Turkey.

He did? Well, damn, where did I spend that 13-month tour in '75-'76?
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2008, 10:23:15 AM »
He did? Well, damn, where did I spend that 13-month tour in '75-'76?

He agreed to remove some bases, and to remove all the missiles pointed at the USSR.

Apparently the Soviets were happy with the arrangement.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

hnumpah

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2008, 11:01:32 AM »
JFK agreed to remove the missiles. The bases stayed. Several of them, like ours, monitored Soviet missile tests and intercepted the telemetry the missiles sent back to evaluate them and their capabilities. We also had American fighters and fighter bombers at various bases there. When the Greeks and Turks got into it over Cyprus, our monitoring activity was shut down, but we still had personnel there to maintain the equipment and keep it on ready standby in case our conflict with the Turks was ever resolved (it eventually was, after I left). There was no rush by Congress or the President to resolve the issue, because we had facilities in Iran that were used as backups. By the time Iran flared up, we were back in operations in Turkey.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Michael Tee

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2008, 11:20:55 AM »
I think the point I was making was the pathetically inaccurate misunderstanding that Pooch has of how the Cuban Missile Crisis was resolved.  How JFK "scared off" the Russians, who simply removed their missiles from Cuba.  What he missed was (a) the U.S. had to remove their missiles (Jupiters, IIRC) from Turkey and (b) JFK never informed the American people of the whole deal, presumably so the idiots could go on believing in the myth of the all-powerful U.S.A., and a President who "faced down" the Russians just like the Sheriff in High Noon. 

I guess one of the questions we all have to ask is how much this cartoonish depiction of complex foreign policy issues contributes to the belligerence of ill-informed schmucks who seem to think that international politics can be resolved favourably if one just thinks of them as plots for a cowboy movie.

hnumpah

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2008, 11:32:33 AM »
You were making a point? I was responding to XO.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Michael Tee

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2008, 12:14:43 PM »
<<You were making a point? I was responding to XO.>>

XO was making the same point I was; neither one of us owns it.  I commented on a response to that point.  What is your fucking problem?

hnumpah

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2008, 12:59:26 PM »
Quote
What is your fucking problem?

Don't have one. What's yours? I mean, other than the obvious.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016