Author Topic: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?  (Read 13151 times)

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Plane

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #75 on: July 30, 2008, 12:49:04 AM »
I know about several incidents like you are mentioning here , I also know that they happen at a rate lower than in the generl population .
=====================================
I bet if we sent an assortment of the general population (especially male members of it) to Iraq, they would try to steal rape and plunder more, but would be far less agile with their weapons, if we armed them.

When some guy in Atlanta rapes some woman in Atlanta, it does not cause an international incident, nor does it reflect poorly on his employers in most cases. That would be comparig apples and oranges.

Comparing US troops in Iraq with African troops in Africa would be like, well, comparing US troops in Iraq with African troops in Africa. The US would not be blamed if a Nigerian soldier rapes a Congolese woman. That would be a rather important difference from an American's viewpoint, I think.




All right , just compare the Canadian or European troops in African UN duty .

Michael Tee

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #76 on: July 30, 2008, 12:51:57 AM »
I'll tell ya what - - when the Canadian, African Union or UN troops in Africa or anywhere else set up an Operation Phoenix, which kills 60,000 civilians, mostly after severe torture, ask me the question again and maybe then it won't seem so ludicrous.

BT

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #77 on: July 30, 2008, 12:59:10 AM »
Didn't Stalin do Operation Phoenix so much better?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 01:02:22 AM by BT »

Michael Tee

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #78 on: July 30, 2008, 01:09:27 AM »
<<Didn't Stalin do Operation Phoenix so much better?>>

Stalin was faced with the problem of subversion from within in the form of Trotskyite-Fourth International penetration of the Soviet government and Communist Party, some in collusion with agents of French and British intelligence and a looming war with Nazi Germany, financed in part by foreign capital.  The fate of the Revolution was in his hands.  I don't know what Stalin did, exactly, but there is no doubt he had to cast a wide net and that some good Communists and loyal Party members were caught up in it.

I don't know what happened exactly, but I hope there was no torture used comparable to the tortures practiced by the Americans in Viet Nam.  I am sure guys were slapped around, deprived of sleep, given a kind of third degree - - but as far as I know nothing like what the Americans and their puppets in various Third World countries were doing.

Whatever Stalin did it was for the purpose of safeguarding the Revolution and liquidating the enemies of the people.  What the U.S. did and is doing is for the sole purpose of domination and exploitation of one people by another.

Plane

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #79 on: July 30, 2008, 01:16:58 AM »
I'll tell ya what - - when the Canadian, African Union or UN troops in Africa or anywhere else set up an Operation Phoenix, which kills 60,000 civilians, mostly after severe torture, ask me the question again and maybe then it won't seem so ludicrous.

Vietnam, 66-71 Phoenix op designed to help U.S. Military reach crossover point, where dead and wounded exceeded VC's ability to field replacements. http://www.serendipity.li/cia/operation_phoenix.htm


Hmmmm... Viet Nam, I should have set a timer to keep track of how long it would take for Viet Nam to show up.

Why the Change of Subject? In what respect is this a comparison of Apples to apples? The CIA was not being discussed in this thread ...&nbsp; Is this abandonment of the point a surrender of the point?


In Okinawia there have been something like a half dozen notorious rapes in the past decade which have put American troops on trial in Japaneese courts. This is like one days score in the Congo, less the day in court.


Okinawia  http://www.transpacificradio.com/2008/02/13/american-soldier-allegedly-rapes-14-year-old-girl-in-okinawa-japan/

African Peacekeepers http://programs.ssrc.org/gsc/gsc_quarterly/newsletter5/content/graybill/
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 02:24:29 AM by Plane »

BT

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #80 on: July 30, 2008, 01:37:38 AM »
Quote
Stalin was faced with the problem of subversion from within in the form of Trotskyite-Fourth International penetration of the Soviet government and Communist Party, some in collusion with agents of French and British intelligence and a looming war with Nazi Germany, financed in part by foreign capital.  The fate of the Revolution was in his hands.  I don't know what Stalin did, exactly, but there is no doubt he had to cast a wide net and that some good Communists and loyal Party members were caught up in it.

I'm sure whatever he did was justified in his and fellow travelers minds. last i read his purges killed 620k to 2 million. Makes the yanks look like pikers.


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #81 on: July 30, 2008, 09:29:37 AM »
I think Stalin was a whole lot worse than the US has ever been, being as his excesses were due to incompetence in determining who was actually guilty of subversion. Stalin betrayed the Revolution, and was at least as incompetent as Mao was with his failed Cultural Revolution and his disastrous and poorly named Great Leap Forward.


Stalin executed and banished anyone who might be suspected in his mind or the minds of his henchmen.

He did more harm than fools like the Dulles Brothers because far more power than they did.

The saying "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" comes to mind.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #82 on: July 30, 2008, 10:55:57 AM »
First of all, to answer plane, "Why bring up Viet Nam," etc., I am sure that one of America's biggest crimes of the 20th century is something he would like to keep buried forever, or if that should turn out to be impossible, then whitewashed by the usual U.S. bullshit about the benevolence of such atrocities as Operation Phoenix, which targeted the VC infrastructure (teachers, tax collectors, Scout leaders, village women's organizations, etc.) for torture and murder, usually in such horrific circumstances that no one would ever again want to make the same "mistake" as participating in the Viet Cong.  In the end, some 60,000 extremely brave and extremely unfortunate human beings were tortured to death under this program.  True enough, it was not, strictly speaking, an Army or Marine program, it was the CIA's baby.  But IMHO, they all work for the same boss and they all represent but one nation.

When the issue of U.S. servicemen's misconduct was raised, plane IMMEDIATELY turned to the African Union in Africa, the UN in Africa, Canada in Africa and BT IMMEDIATELY turned (but of course!!) to Stalin.  However, there are some limits, apparently.  plane is completely at a loss to understand why I would turn to the U.S. in Viet Nam.

Stalin's purges were unfortunate necessities and in hindsight perhaps might have been accomplished with the spilling of some innocent blood, how much we will never know.  The Revolution was in danger and had Stalin done nothing to counteract the danger, it is certain that a combination of Trotskyite and Western subversion would have rendered it incapable of resisting Hitler's attack.  As it was, the Revolution and the Red Army survived to destroy fascism in Europe forever (with the sole exception of the non-belligerent fascists of the Iberian Peninsula, who basically earned their way out of the catastophe, Spain by not joining in when beseeched by Hitler, Portugal by permitting first British, then U.S. operation of radar in the Azores to protect the North Atlantic convoys through part of their route.)  Instead of routinely slandering Stalin, we should all recognize him as the leader whose forces killed more Germans than any other Allied power and who was the main engine in the destruction of Nazi Germany.  Were mistakes made in the purges?  Sure.  Was every mistake avoidable?  Get real.  What would have happened had the purges not been undertaken?  You wouldn't even want to think about it.  Start with the triumph of Nazi Germany allied with fascist Russia, and take it from there.

As far as the numbers allegedly killed in the purges (and the Ukrainian famine, which in fact resulted from hoarding by selfish kulaks) these seem to grow exponentially every time I read about them.  I fully expect that in another twenty years, some "scholar" will "prove" that the death toll exceeded the actual population by a factor of some 20%.  I don't trust any one of the numbers I've seen and I've never seen any that didn't depend on sources that were founded in anti-Soviet and anti-Semitic agitation.

BT

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #83 on: July 30, 2008, 01:21:51 PM »
Quote
As far as the numbers allegedly killed in the purges (and the Ukrainian famine, which in fact resulted from hoarding by selfish kulaks) these seem to grow exponentially every time I read about them. 

It wouldl be interesting to see what number the Lancet could come up with.


Plane

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #84 on: July 30, 2008, 05:54:41 PM »
First of all, to answer plane, "Why bring up Viet Nam," etc., I am sure that one of America's biggest crimes of the 20th century is something he would like to keep buried forever, or if that should turn out to be impossible, then whitewashed by the usual U.S. bullshit about the benevolence of such atrocities as Operation Phoenix, which targeted the VC infrastructure (teachers, tax collectors, Scout leaders, village women's organizations, etc.) for torture and murder, usually in such horrific circumstances that no one would ever again want to make the same "mistake" as participating in the Viet Cong.  In the end, some 60,000 extremely brave and extremely unfortunate human beings were tortured to death under this program.  True enough, it was not, strictly speaking, an Army or Marine program, it was the CIA's baby.  But IMHO, they all work for the same boss and they all represent but one nation.

When the issue of U.S. servicemen's misconduct was raised, plane IMMEDIATELY turned to the African Union in Africa, the UN in Africa, Canada in Africa and BT IMMEDIATELY turned (but of course!!) to Stalin.  However, there are some limits, apparently.  plane is completely at a loss to understand why I would turn to the U.S. in Viet Nam.

Stalin's purges were unfortunate necessities and in hindsight perhaps might have been accomplished with the spilling of some innocent blood, how much we will never know.  The Revolution was in danger and had Stalin done nothing to counteract the danger, it is certain that a combination of Trotskyite and Western subversion would have rendered it incapable of resisting Hitler's attack.  As it was, the Revolution and the Red Army survived to destroy fascism in Europe forever (with the sole exception of the non-belligerent fascists of the Iberian Peninsula, who basically earned their way out of the catastophe, Spain by not joining in when beseeched by Hitler, Portugal by permitting first British, then U.S. operation of radar in the Azores to protect the North Atlantic convoys through part of their route.)  Instead of routinely slandering Stalin, we should all recognize him as the leader whose forces killed more Germans than any other Allied power and who was the main engine in the destruction of Nazi Germany.  Were mistakes made in the purges?  Sure.  Was every mistake avoidable?  Get real.  What would have happened had the purges not been undertaken?  You wouldn't even want to think about it.  Start with the triumph of Nazi Germany allied with fascist Russia, and take it from there.

As far as the numbers allegedly killed in the purges (and the Ukrainian famine, which in fact resulted from hoarding by selfish kulaks) these seem to grow exponentially every time I read about them.  I fully expect that in another twenty years, some "scholar" will "prove" that the death toll exceeded the actual population by a factor of some 20%.  I don't trust any one of the numbers I've seen and I've never seen any that didn't depend on sources that were founded in anti-Soviet and anti-Semitic agitation.


The CIA should be comared with the NKVD , and I am not worried about the comparison.

The behavior of Soviet troops , I do not expect to be nearly as bad as NKVD nor do I need to lump them together to make the comparison, still I understand that in the early period of Soviet occupation of Germany unraped women were scarce.


Still I was not hopeing to jump back decades and compare us all for all time. I was talking about recently and currently , the UN troops that are being used as occupation forces have as spotty a record as any troops in the world today , that is a fair comparison to the trouble in Iraq.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #85 on: July 30, 2008, 08:27:39 PM »
The CIA should be comared with the NKVD , and I am not worried about the comparison.
==========================
No.
The CIA should be compared with what it could have been had it not been doing the bidding of the oligarchy, and instead sought to inculcate the actual democratic and egalitarian beliefs of most Americans.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #86 on: July 30, 2008, 10:08:12 PM »
<<The CIA should be comared with the NKVD , and I am not worried about the comparison.>>

Well, maybe you should be, because with all due respect, I don't think you know all that much about the NKVD.  Probably 100% of what you have heard about them comes from anti-Soviet sources.

<<The behavior of Soviet troops , I do not expect to be nearly as bad as NKVD nor do I need to lump them together to make the comparison, still I understand that in the early period of Soviet occupation of Germany unraped women were scarce.>>

Maybe you should read up a little bit more on the behaviour of the German troops in Russia, you can't know very much about it if you are still concerned about the poor, innocent, raped women of Germany, almost all of whom lived to tell about it.  Unlike the dozens of millions of Russian civilian victims of the German Army, police and SS units in Russia and the six million murdered Jews.


<<Still I was not hopeing to jump back decades and compare us all for all time. I was talking about recently and currently , the UN troops that are being used as occupation forces have as spotty a record as any troops in the world today , that is a fair comparison to the trouble in Iraq.>>

No, I think you are dead wrong.  I would think if you compared civilian death tolls, the U.S. is the undisputed champ.

Plane

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #87 on: July 30, 2008, 11:23:22 PM »
No, I think you are dead wrong.  I would think if you compared civilian death tolls, the U.S. is the undisputed champ.

That is because the Lancet has been ignoreing Rawanda.

Michael Tee

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Re: What? AP says we're WINNING in Iraq?
« Reply #88 on: July 30, 2008, 11:49:17 PM »
<<That is because the Lancet has been ignoreing Rawanda.>>

Rwanda was 800,000 killed, Viet Nam was 2,000,000 and Indonesia was 500,000, Guatemala 100,000.  Don't be so modest, you guys are the no. 1 killers of civilians world-wide, hands down.  500,000 children just in Iraq, just during the embargo, and Madelyne Albright said it was "worth it."