Author Topic: You Think Maybe the Russians are a Little Pissed Off?  (Read 5452 times)

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Michael Tee

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You Think Maybe the Russians are a Little Pissed Off?
« on: August 13, 2008, 10:56:10 PM »
from PRAVDA, as quoted in a typically excellent Paul Craig Roberts article in today's Counterpunch:
(the entire Pravda quote is reprinted below)


    “President Bush,

    Why don’t you shut up? In your statement on Monday regarding the legitimate actions of the Russian Federation in Georgia, you failed to mention  the war crimes perpetrated by Georgian military forces, which American advisors support, against Russian and Ossetian civilians

    “President Bush,

    Why don’t you shut up? Your faithful ally, Mikhail Saakashvili, was announcing a ceasefire deal while his troops, with your advisors, were massing on Ossetia’s border, which they crossed under cover of night and destroyed Tskhinvali, targeting civilian structures just like your forces did in Iraq.

    “President Bush,

    Why don’t you shut up? Your American transport aircraft gave a ride home to thousands of Georgian soldiers from Iraq directly into the combat zone.

    “President Bush,

    Why don’t you shut up? How do you account for the fact that among the Georgian soldiers fleeing the fighting yesterday you could clearly hear officers using American English giving orders to “Get back inside” and how do you account for the fact that there are reports of American soldiers among the Georgian casualties?

    “President Bush,

    Why don’t you shut up? Do you really think anyone gives any importance whatsoever to your words after 8 years of your criminal and murderous regime and policies? Do you really believe you have any moral ground whatsoever and do you really imagine there is a single human being anywhere on this planet who does not stick up his middle finger every time you appear on a TV screen?

    Do you really believe you have the right to give any opinion or advice after Abu Ghraib? After Guantanamo? After the massacre of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens? After the torture by CIA operatives?

    Do you really believe you have any right to make a statement on any point of international law after your trumped-up charges against Iraq and the subsequent criminal invasion?

    “President Bush,

    Why don’t you shut up? Suppose Russia for instance declares that Georgia has weapons of mass destruction? And that Russia knows where these WMD are, namely in Tblisi and Poti and north, south, east and west of there? And that it must be true because there is ‘magnificent foreign intelligenc’  such as satellite photos of milk powder factories and baby cereals producing chemical weapons and which are currently being ‘driven around the country in vehicles’? Suppose Russia declares for instance that ‘Saakashvili stiffed the world’ and it is ‘time for regime change’?

Nice and simple, isn’t it, President Bush?

“So, why don’t you shut up? Oh and by the way, send some more of your military advisors to Georgia, they are doing a sterling job. And they look all funny down the night sight, all green.”

=============================================================================

Well, there is ONE country which isn't going to take any more of America's shit.  And will probably feel a lot freer to provide aid and assistance to any others who won't take any more shit either.

Plane

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Re: You Think Maybe the Russians are a Little Pissed Off?
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2008, 11:07:46 PM »
They must be feeling vunerable .

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: You Think Maybe the Russians are a Little Pissed Off?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2008, 11:12:26 PM »
"Well, there is ONE country which isn't going to take any more of America's shit"

oh we are soooooooooooooo scared of that miserable failure of a country!

they really came out on top of the Cold War!  :D



yeah Russia has produced so many Dells, Microsofts, Walmarts, Apple/IPOD, Sony, Toyotas, Cokes, MRI inventions







"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

fatman

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Re: You Think Maybe the Russians are a Little Pissed Off?
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2008, 11:16:43 PM »

yeah Russia has produced so many Dells, Microsofts, Walmarts, Apple/IPOD, Sony, Toyotas, Cokes, MRI inventions

Seriously, does any of this matter?  The one thing that definitely does matter is that they've produced plenty of ICBM's and nuclear submarines.

Plane

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Re: You Think Maybe the Russians are a Little Pissed Off?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2008, 11:25:01 PM »

yeah Russia has produced so many Dells, Microsofts, Walmarts, Apple/IPOD, Sony, Toyotas, Cokes, MRI inventions

Seriously, does any of this matter?  The one thing that definitely does matter is that they've produced plenty of ICBM's and nuclear submarines.

This fleet of missles and subs do not equal ours anymore , we have reduced our complememt on purpose and so have they , but our remaining armory is well maintained while theirs is much less dependable , if we come to fight on ultimate terms their Dud rate will be high and their loss of subs will be nearly total.

There has never been a  time since the 1950's that they would have less confidence in winning against us in a nuclear war.


fatman

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Re: You Think Maybe the Russians are a Little Pissed Off?
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2008, 11:27:42 PM »
Serious question Plane:  Is it possible to "win" a nuclear war or a nuclear exchange?  I'm not being facetious, I've just never really thought about the possibility.  I always figured it to be a kind of mutual annihilation thing.

Michael Tee

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Re: You Think Maybe the Russians are a Little Pissed Off?
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2008, 11:31:40 PM »
At this point in time, not only do they not appear to be frightened of you, but I have never even in the worst times of the Cold War seen anything near such a level of contempt for a sitting U.S. President.  This is simply unprecedented.  CU4 claims not to be frightened of the Russians, but I don't believe you are going to see any U.S. intervention in Georgia.  And it's already cost 3,000 "coalition" soldiers.  Georgia was one of the larger troop contributors.  3,000 was their full commitment and they are all being pulled out.

Amianthus

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Re: You Think Maybe the Russians are a Little Pissed Off?
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2008, 11:34:09 PM »
Depends on the nukes used. Tactical, yes, strategic, no.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

fatman

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Re: You Think Maybe the Russians are a Little Pissed Off?
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2008, 11:38:03 PM »
Depends on the nukes used. Tactical, yes, strategic, no.

Is it possible to know which is which while they're being detected as incoming?  Or once they hit for that matter?  Again, I'm not being facetious but this is a new and fairly interesting concept to me (though I'm aware that Kissinger first gained fame in the 50's for being a proponent of just such a strategy and writing a book on it).  The thing that would worry me would be if country A fired a bunch of tactical nukes at country B, and country B couldn't see what the heck they were, and fired a bunch of strategic nukes back, that would be a very very bad thing all around.

Have I missed something in my thinking?

Amianthus

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Re: You Think Maybe the Russians are a Little Pissed Off?
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2008, 11:42:19 PM »
Tactical nukes are short range, designed for battlefield attacks.

Strategic nukes are long range, designed to kill civilians and take out bases inside another country.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

fatman

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Re: You Think Maybe the Russians are a Little Pissed Off?
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2008, 11:43:37 PM »
Thanks for the clarification Ami, I'm going to read up on it some more now that my interest is piqued.  I'll probably see if I can find Kissinger's book anywhere while I'm at it.

Plane

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Re: You Think Maybe the Russians are a Little Pissed Off?
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2008, 11:53:33 PM »
Depends on the nukes used. Tactical, yes, strategic, no.

Is it possible to know which is which while they're being detected as incoming?  Or once they hit for that matter?  Again, I'm not being facetious but this is a new and fairly interesting concept to me (though I'm aware that Kissinger first gained fame in the 50's for being a proponent of just such a strategy and writing a book on it).  The thing that would worry me would be if country A fired a bunch of tactical nukes at country B, and country B couldn't see what the heck they were, and fired a bunch of strategic nukes back, that would be a very very bad thing all around.

Have I missed something in my thinking?

No that is right , the absolute worst woud be assumed unless the number of missles were very small.

Several times high alerts have been called because of false indications of attack , each time the false indication was discovered in time to prevent the retaliation strike .  It is important to be reluctant.

Right now though there is a missle gap that we can measure quite well and we are on the high side of it , does this make a diffrence?

Not necessacerily , if the opponent is somehow sure that we will not use the big ones even under extreme duress , they may feel free to apply extreme duress. I myself don't feel that it is impossible to get us to use our Atomic arsenal , and I don't think it should be clear where the tripline is such that opponents could operate right up to the tripline.

Religious Dick

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Re: You Think Maybe the Russians are a Little Pissed Off?
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2008, 11:54:54 PM »
At this point in time, not only do they not appear to be frightened of you, but I have never even in the worst times of the Cold War seen anything near such a level of contempt for a sitting U.S. President.  This is simply unprecedented.  CU4 claims not to be frightened of the Russians, but I don't believe you are going to see any U.S. intervention in Georgia.  And it's already cost 3,000 "coalition" soldiers.  Georgia was one of the larger troop contributors.  3,000 was their full commitment and they are all being pulled out.

Frightened has nothing to do with it. They know Georgia isn't worth starting WWIII to us. If they were to invade Europe, I expect things would get nasty. Which is why they certainly won't.
I speak of civil, social man under law, and no other.
-Sir Edmund Burke

Plane

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Re: You Think Maybe the Russians are a Little Pissed Off?
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2008, 11:59:47 PM »
At this point in time, not only do they not appear to be frightened of you, but I have never even in the worst times of the Cold War seen anything near such a level of contempt for a sitting U.S. President.  This is simply unprecedented.  CU4 claims not to be frightened of the Russians, but I don't believe you are going to see any U.S. intervention in Georgia.  And it's already cost 3,000 "coalition" soldiers.  Georgia was one of the larger troop contributors.  3,000 was their full commitment and they are all being pulled out.

This is worse than the Prague spring or the Cuban Missle crisis?

I think we have exactly the President we need to comit massive retaliation , if that is the decision reached.

But it will take weeks to gather , the Russians were obviously prepared well to attack , they must have been prepareing for weeks or months  , are they also prepared to attack elesewhere?

This might be a very good time to ask all of the rest of the Republics south of Russia to join Nato.

sirs

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Re: You Think Maybe the Russians are a Little Pissed Off?
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2008, 12:21:24 AM »
Serious question Plane:  Is it possible to "win" a nuclear war or a nuclear exchange?  I'm not being facetious, I've just never really thought about the possibility.  I always figured it to be a kind of mutual annihilation thing.

JUST caught the classic movie Wargames, with Matthew Broderick.  GREAT flick       8)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle