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Religious Dick

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Georgia?s Defeat and America?s Options
« on: August 14, 2008, 12:02:04 AM »
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Published on The Brussels Journal (http://www.brusselsjournal.com)
Georgia?s Defeat and America?s Options
By Joshua Trevino
Created 2008-08-13 18:33

What Mikheil Saakashvili began at his discretion, Vladimir Putin ends at his pleasure. The Russians have called a halt to their offensive in Georgia, and none too soon for the Georgians. What remains is the postwar settlement, and the American part in it.

A look at the situation on the ground speaks to the Russian dominance of the little Caucasian republic: the Russians have near-total freedom of movement in the western plain, with soldiers in Poti. Georgia?s only meaningful lifelines to the outside world are the port of Batumi, and the long road to Yerevan. Neither of these are significant corridors for supply, and the port is free only at Russian sufferance. Further war would have seen a battle for Tbilisi in the coming 36 hours. The Georgians would have lost, and the war thence would probably have devolved into guerrilla actions centered about a sort of Georgian national redoubt in the south ? in regions populated more by Armenians and Azeris than by Georgians. To be spared all this is a mercy that Georgians, rightly inflamed by what?s been done in mere days, may not fully appreciate.

The postwar settlement remains thoroughly opaque, even if, as the Russians report, the conditions of a ceasefire are agreed. The Russian war aim was never announced ? or rather, it only announced itself on the ground ? and its political end remains obscure. The formal disposition of the Russian-occupied secessionist regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia must be decided; the mechanisms of reparation, if any, must be agreed upon; and, most troublingly, the Russians are making noises about extraditing Saakashvili to the Hague. Here, a definitive settlement is to everyone?s advantage ? not least the Georgians, who are ill-advised to act as if they are anything but beaten. Absurdities like putting Saakashvili in the ICC dock should be rejected, but otherwise, it is almost certainly best to let the Russians dictate their terms ? and let resistance to those terms emanate from sources able to make that resistance count, like Europe and the United States.

With this in mind, the first task of America?s postwar policy in the Caucasus is distasteful in the extreme: pushing the Georgians to understand and act like what they are, which is a defeated nation in no position to make demands. This does not square easily with American sentiment ? nor my own ? nor with the Vice President?s declaration that Russia?s aggression ?must not go unanswered,? nor with John McCain?s declaration that ?today we are all Georgians.? Russia?s aggression and consequent battlefield victory will stand, and as the last thing the volatile Caucasus needs is yet another revisionist, revanchist state, it befits a would-be member of the Western alliance to make its peace with that. However inflammatory the issue of ?lost? Abkhazia and South Ossetia are in the Georgian public square, it is nothing that the Germans, the Finns, and the Greeks, to name a few, have not had to come to terms with in the course of their accessions to the first tier of Western nations. We should not demand less of Georgia.

The second, and more enduring, task of our policy must be the swift containment of Russia. I use the term deliberately: to invoke another Cold War-era phrase, we?re not going to ?roll back? any of Russia?s recent territorial gains, nor should we attempt to reverse what prosperity it has achieved in the past decade. (That prosperity, being based mostly upon transitory prices for natural resources, will itself be transitory in time.) Russia?s leadership has declared that it seeks the reversal, de facto if not de jure, of the ?catastrophe? of the USSR?s end. Though not marked by any formal decision in the vein of Versailles, this is nonetheless a strategic outcome that America has a direct interest in preserving. That interest has only gone up with the admission of former Soviet-bloc states ? and former Soviet states ? to NATO. Inasmuch as Russian revisionism threatens the alliance that has kept the peace in Europe for generations now, it must be confronted and deterred.

The obvious question is how this may be done with the tools America has at hand. It is a media commonplace over the past several days that the United States has no leverage over Russia. This is false. American policy can and does tremendously affect several things of tremendous importance to Moscow. A brief (though not comprehensive) list of available pressure points follows:

First, the Ukraine. First and foremost, there is no former Soviet state that Russia wishes to have in its orbit more than the Ukraine. Not coincidentally, the Ukraine was also the only nation besides the United States to render Georgia material assistance in this war, when it threatened to deny Sevastopol to the Russian Black Sea Fleet. European reluctance to antagonize Russia scuttled the Ukraine?s potential NATO membership at the NATO Bucharest summit this past spring. In light of Georgia?s fate, issuance of a MAP, or even outright NATO membership, to the Ukraine, is an appropriate riposte to Russia?s war. Unlike Georgia, the Ukraine has no territorial or secessionist issues, nor an unstable leadership apt to launch unwinnable wars. It does, though, very much need the sort of guarantee that NATO exists to give.

Second, Russia?s G8 membership. The G8 is purportedly the group of the world?s largest industrial democracies. Russia, with a GDP smaller than Spain?s and a per-capita income lower than Gabon?s, was admitted in 1997 as a means of supporting its integration into international economic institutions. It?s a privilege, not a right, and it should be conditioned upon responsible membership in the community of nations. Expulsion of Russia from the G8 is a longtime policy favorite of John McCain?s, and it?s time to consider his preference.

Third, Russia?s client states. This is a short list, though Russian revisionism would wish to see it lengthen. Belarus is by far Russia?s premier client, followed by varying degrees of Russian influence over Armenia, Serbia, Azerbaijan, and the central Asian states. (We?ll exclude here clients like Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Transnistria, all of which have statuses that are dubious at best.) We?ve already seen that Russia reacts to defend Belarus when the latter is criticized. An available pressure point, then, is to turn up the heat on the Belarusian regime ? specifically with support of dissidents in Belarus ? and link it explicitly to Russia?s behavior elsewhere.

Fourth, Russia?s dissidents. Russian public life is nowhere near Soviet depths, but it is nonetheless notable that the Moscow regime places a premium upon the control of journalistic institutions and media. (A great, English-language example of the slick and statist nature of modern Russian media may be found at Russia Today ? note the stories on Georgian ?spy rings? and refugees from Georgian aggression fleeing into Russia.) Divergence from the Putin line is a good way to end up unemployed or dead, and so we ought to lend what support we may to independent media personnel ? and their means.

Finally, Russia?s Internet. A major tool of Russian foreign policy in the past few years is what may only be described as cyber-warfare. We saw it when Russia wished to punish Estonia [pdf], and we saw it again this week against nearly all of Georgia?s .ge-domain sites. This is a tremendously thorny problem, both because cyber-war by its nature affords the perpetrators plausible denial, and because it is quite easy to respond to a wrong with a wrong ? in America?s case, by using its leverage over Californa-based ICANN to invalidate .ru domains from which Russian attacks emanate. Here, the basic functionality of the Internet must be balanced against political concerns ? and there must be some mechanism for determining when political concerns from nations like Russia damage the basic functionality of the Internet.

Beyond applying pressure to Russia, American policy must focus upon reassurance to the NATO nations that expressed alarm at Georgia?s subjugation. NATO allies Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and the Czech Republic all know quite well what it means to be crushed by the force of Russian arms, and all were therefore demonstrative in expressing their dismay at events in Georgia. If NATO and the American connection in particular is going to retain its meaning for them, it is up to us to provide the necessary reassurance. Although NATO is no longer a formally anti-Soviet (and therefore anti-Russian) alliance, we cannot pretend that it does not hold precisely that meaning for several of its member states. A failure to recognize this would concurrently weaken the alliance.

The war in Georgia is done but for the details, and the occasional sniping. Georgia lost on the first day, and Georgia has mostly ? though not wholly ? itself to blame. But if Georgia is prostrate, America and the West are not. If some good is to come of this, and if Russia?s adventure in its ?near abroad? is to be its last, we must act decisively ? and now.
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http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3458
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Michael Tee

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Re: Georgia?s Defeat and America?s Options
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2008, 01:15:47 AM »
I liked the article very much.  It proved to me that Russia was the big winner in this confrontation with an American puppet state.

It also proved to me that Russia is resurgent.  It can and will become a counterbalance to the American drive for world hegemony, hopefully in close association with China and/or India.

It was also reassuring to note the ineffectiveness, and indeed, silliness of many of the "countermeasures" that the author proposes to rein in Russia.

And finally, it was kind of a scathing criticism of the moronic Bush administration, which foolishly provoked the situation, and proved helpless when it blew up in Uncle Sam's face.

Plane

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Re: Georgia?s Defeat and America?s Options
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2008, 01:25:07 AM »
The Russians have stated each day that they are ceaseing fire , and each day they capture more territory.

There is no US puppetry going on here , that is just an accusation that makes nostalgic Russians think they can win the Cold war if they restart it and do it right this time.

Mikheil Saakashvili has been poisoned and threatened in every way that a neighboring bully can threaten.


Lets think about useing the same methods ourselves?

Should we poison the Prime minister of Canada? Use Cross border incidents on our southern border as excuse for takeing a buffer area away from Mexico? Arm Cuban thugs and call them a seapratist.... oh wait we did that one.

Still Russia is not excused to emulate the big lie tecniques of the Natzis , it is working , but it is not going to fool everyone nor anyone very long.

Michael Tee

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Re: Georgia?s Defeat and America?s Options
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2008, 11:35:47 PM »
<<The Russians have stated each day that they are ceaseing fire , and each day they capture more territory.>>

I like that.  Like the way they operate.

<<There is no US puppetry going on here . . . >>

Bullshit.  Who do you think arms and advises them?  Who do you think had 3,000 troops in Iraq on the U.S. side?

<<that is just an accusation that makes nostalgic Russians think they can win the Cold war if they restart it and do it right this time.>>

You know any nostalgic Russians personally or did you just make that up because it sounds good?

Mikheil Saakashvili has been poisoned and threatened in every way that a neighboring bully can threaten.


<<Lets think about useing the same methods ourselves?>>

Why, are your present methods not evil and criminal enough?

<<Should we poison the Prime minister of Canada? Use Cross border incidents on our southern border as excuse for takeing a buffer area away from Mexico? >>

You've already got access to our resources, so why bother?

<<Arm Cuban thugs and call them a seapratist.... oh wait we did that one.>>

No you called them Cuban Patriots.

<<Still Russia is not excused to emulate the big lie tecniques of the Natzis , it is working , but it is not going to fool everyone nor anyone very long.>>

I guess Bush and Cheney found that out first hand.

Plane

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Re: Georgia?s Defeat and America?s Options
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2008, 08:08:18 PM »
Quote
The Russian war aim was never announced ? or rather, it only announced itself on the ground ? and its political end remains obscure.

What no exit strategy , no timetable?


Quote
<<Should we poison the Prime minister of Canada? Use Cross border incidents on our southern border as excuse for takeing a buffer area away from Mexico? >>

You've already got access to our resources, so why bother?


Russia has all the access it needs to raw material and no real need to poison the officials of its neighbors , or grabbing territory , why do they bother?

Am I wrong ? Are you really saying that the point is grabbing the mines , wells and ports?

Michael Tee

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Re: Georgia?s Defeat and America?s Options
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2008, 01:01:16 PM »
<<Russia has all the access it needs to raw material and no real need to poison the officials of its neighbors , or grabbing territory , why do they bother?>>

The U.S. is grabbing properties of the former Soviet Union and using them to encircle Russia.  Some of them have joined NATO.  All supposedly contrary to assurances given by Reagan to Gorbachev at the time that the U.S.S.R. broke up.

Georgia was trying hard to get into NATO and furnishing troops for the criminal U.S. invasion of Iraq.  God knows what other skullduggery they and their U.S. patrons were up to, but it sure looks like the Russians not only got wind of it but DID something about it.  To send a message to Georgia and other U.S. puppets or wannabe puppets in the region.

Plane

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Re: Georgia?s Defeat and America?s Options
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2008, 11:21:04 PM »
<<Russia has all the access it needs to raw material and no real need to poison the officials of its neighbors , or grabbing territory , why do they bother?>>

The U.S. is grabbing properties of the former Soviet Union and using them to encircle Russia.  Some of them have joined NATO.  All supposedly contrary to assurances given by Reagan to Gorbachev at the time that the U.S.S.R. broke up.

Georgia was trying hard to get into NATO and furnishing troops for the criminal U.S. invasion of Iraq.  God knows what other skullduggery they and their U.S. patrons were up to, but it sure looks like the Russians not only got wind of it but DID something about it.  To send a message to Georgia and other U.S. puppets or wannabe puppets in the region.


You think their need for NATO to be imagined?

Plane

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Re: Georgia?s Defeat and America?s Options
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2008, 11:33:13 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080819/ts_nm/georgia_ossetia_nato_dc;_ylt=AiPCT66IPV5UfEIPQHGJFJqs0NUE


Nato says the right words , so far that is about it.

Could be the start of a Sitskreg?

Russians seem to not want to withdraw untill they have broken every military machine in Georgia , so when they do withdraw might they just say , who's next?

Michael Tee

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Re: Georgia?s Defeat and America?s Options
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2008, 11:40:08 PM »
<<You think their need for NATO to be imagined?>>

Put it this way:  they can't be a U.S. satellite and NOT be in NATO.  Even though being in NATO wouldn't give them any real guarantees either; it's just the first step.

The real question for them is, why do they need to be a U.S. satellite?  I think they should impeach the sitting president, Saakashvili, put him on trial for betraying the national interest to the U.S.A. and execute him.  The Russians would be happy, the South Ossetians and Abkhazis would be happy and the Georgian people would be happy because the Russian army wouldn't have to be always invading them.

Plane

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Re: Georgia?s Defeat and America?s Options
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2008, 11:51:25 PM »
<<You think their need for NATO to be imagined?>>

Put it this way:  they can't be a U.S. satellite and NOT be in NATO.  Even though being in NATO wouldn't give them any real guarantees either; it's just the first step.

The real question for them is, why do they need to be a U.S. satellite?  I think they should impeach the sitting president, Saakashvili, put him on trial for betraying the national interest to the U.S.A. and execute him.  The Russians would be happy, the South Ossetians and Abkhazis would be happy and the Georgian people would be happy because the Russian army wouldn't have to be always invading them.

The President of Georgia was elected twice, you have no respect for the voice of the people?

The Russians were ready to invade immediately on the Georgian attempt to quash an insurrection , what a co-incidence.

The USSR dies and the Russians return to the marginally better behavior of the Czarist era, Lenin was right Russia is the prison of nations.

This is a nasty thing to do to their neighbors and it is the very reason that the odious Natzis were welcomed by so many allies as they marched , the German high command distained the potential of freinds on site , they were racists after all and Slavs were not high on their respect meter.

But if Russia achives again a perch on the necks of all of its neighbors , they will have again to worry about the maintenience of this balance with constant terror , and hope that no enemy ever again comes to exploit their resentfull enslaved slavs.

Michael Tee

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Re: Georgia?s Defeat and America?s Options
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2008, 12:27:01 AM »
<<The President of Georgia was elected twice, you have no respect for the voice of the people?>>

No, he was America's man, who knows what undercover dirty tricks they pulled to get him in.

<<The Russians were ready to invade immediately on the Georgian attempt to quash an insurrection , what a co-incidence.>>

It's not a coincidence, they already had peace-keepers on the ground there anyway.

<<The USSR dies and the Russians return to the marginally better behavior of the Czarist era, Lenin was right Russia is the prison of nations.>>

Lenin spoke of Czarist Russia.  That was a long time ago.  At that time the U.S. was the Land of Lynch Law and the KKK.

<<This is a nasty thing to do to their neighbors >>

Not as bad as what the U.S. did to Iraq or Viet Nam.

<< . . . and it is the very reason that the odious Natzis were welcomed by so many allies as they marched >>>

Let's at least be clear about why they were welcomed.  No. 1, they were welcomed by anti-Semites who wanted to witness a horrible agonizing death for every Jew in the land, and No. 2, they were welcomed by the enemies of the people, the grain-hoarding peasants, the expropriated land-owners, the farmers who cheated the state, the RCC, the pimps and the brothel-owners.

<<But if Russia achives again a perch on the necks of all of its neighbors , they will have again to worry about the maintenience of this balance with constant terror , and hope that no enemy ever again comes to exploit their resentfull enslaved slavs.>>

Russia's on good terms with the Orthodox Slavs, like the Bulgarians, the Serbs and the eastern Ukrainians.  They're on bad terms with the RCC Slavs like the Polacks, the Western Ukrainians and the Czechs.  (The Czechs are mostly atheists, but of the religious minority, most are RCC, the rest are Prods, none are Orthodox.)  I think at this point in their history, they've learned what fascism is and how to deal with it.  If there's ever a replay of the WWII fascist invasion, they're gonna be ready for the collaborators from Day One, and there will be some very bad days ahead for fascist collaborators.

_JS

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Re: Georgia?s Defeat and America?s Options
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2008, 02:01:34 PM »
The President of Georgia was elected twice, you have no respect for the voice of the people?

The President of Georgia never ruled South Ossetia, from the very beginning after the USSR collapsed. This is a fact, whether you, Bush, or the UN choose to acknowledge it or not.

Quote
The Russians were ready to invade immediately on the Georgian attempt to quash an insurrection , what a co-incidence.

And Georgia knew this. The US warned them not to overestimate Russian tolerance. Don't pretend this was a great surprise, South Ossetia has been independent for 16 years.

Quote
The USSR dies and the Russians return to the marginally better behavior of the Czarist era, Lenin was right Russia is the prison of nations.

Cold War bullshit.

Quote
This is a nasty thing to do to their neighbors and it is the very reason that the odious Natzis were welcomed by so many allies as they marched , the German high command distained the potential of freinds on site , they were racists after all and Slavs were not high on their respect meter.

LOLOLOL

You realize of course that we've invaded our neighbors in Latin America literally hundreds of times. That doesn't even include the support of terror-regimes, death squads, and other brutal measures we've taken in Latin America and the Caribbean.

You forget that the Nazis were also welcomed for the very reason that they were racist. The Ukrainians especially loved the anti-Semitic and anti-Communist aspect of the Nazi regime and quite a few Ukrainians went on to be notorious members of the SS and other Nazi officials.

Quote
But if Russia achives again a perch on the necks of all of its neighbors , they will have again to worry about the maintenience of this balance with constant terror , and hope that no enemy ever again comes to exploit their resentfull enslaved slavs.

So in Cold War II, what's the new plan? You don't have communism to hate. It is two very capitalist, nominally Christian states. I can see how this helps the right wing in western democracies, but aren't you missing the idealism part of the original cold war? What's going to drive your cold warriors? Pure racism? Nationalism?
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Plane

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Re: Georgia?s Defeat and America?s Options
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2008, 12:13:29 AM »
So in Cold War II, what's the new plan? You don't have communism to hate. It is two very capitalist, nominally Christian states. I can see how this helps the right wing in western democracies, but aren't you missing the idealism part of the original cold war? What's going to drive your cold warriors? Pure racism? Nationalism?

Well on the Russian side , aggrandisement.

Plane

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Re: Georgia?s Defeat and America?s Options
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2008, 12:40:16 AM »
Lenin spoke of Czarist Russia.  That was a long time ago.  At that time the U.S. was the Land of Lynch Law and the KKK.


Yes he did , and it was an accurate observation , when did it become untrue?

Michael Tee

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Re: Georgia?s Defeat and America?s Options
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2008, 12:55:07 AM »
<<Yes he [Lenin] did [say so], and it was an accurate observation [that Russia was the prison of nations], when did it become untrue?>>

It became untrue with the triumph of the Bolshevik Revolution.  After WWII, Russia had to establish a protective belt around itself and guard against the emergence of fascism in the former Axis countries, like Hungary and East Germany, that it defeated and occupied, so it kept a tight anti-fascist lid on them.  Poland was in the same boat, although they were our Allies, they were fanatical anti-Semites, right-wing fascists and militarists and also needed a tight lid kept on them.  The U.S.S.R. was not a "prison of nations" after WWII, but OTOH, was not about to permit the rise of new fascist and anti-Soviet regimes in the lands it had recently conquered.  It did not need to face new attacks from the West, and there was also a requirement to extract payment for reparations from the former Axis satellite countries that it occupied.  They never really repaid the U.S.S.R. for the terrible damage they caused, but the Russians had to be there to ensure that the country's wealth was being sent in the right direction.  But really, at the end of the day, it was mostly the fascists and the anti-Semites who suffered under Russian hegemony.