JS what do you think?

[Christians4LessGvt]

Catholic Archbishop Charles Chaput of Denver said Senator Joe Biden should
avoid taking Communion as a result of his pro-choice stand on abortion.

[BT]

I can't speak for JS but i think the Bishop is out of line.

To be honest, that is a change in position from 4 years ago.

I have no problem with faith, more and more i am having a problem with religious brand wars.

[Christians4LessGvt]

Pelosi stands by abortion comments

AP foreign, Wednesday August 27 2008 

By ERIC GORSKI

Associated Press Writer

DENVER (AP) - Under fire from U.S. Catholic bishops, Democratic House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is not backing off contentious comments about abortion she made during a weekend television talk show appearance.

Pelosi said Sunday on NBC's ``Meet the Press'' that ``doctors of the church'' have not been able to define when life begins. That prompted swift rebukes from Washington Archbishop Donald Wuerl and Denver Archbishop Charles Chaput, who said Pelosi was incorrect and that Catholic teaching has consistently condemned abortion.

Cardinal Edward Egan of New York voiced similar sentiment Tuesday. Cardinal Justin Rigali, chairman of the U.S. bishops' Committee on Pro-Life Activities, and Bishop William Lori, chairman of the bishops' Committee on Doctrine, also issued a statement correcting Pelosi.

Brendan Daly, a spokesman for Pelosi, said in a statement Tuesday that she ``fully appreciates the sanctity of family'' and based her views on conception on the ``views of Saint Augustine, who said: '... the law does not provide that the act (abortion) pertains to homicide, for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation ...'''

The statement from Rigali and Lori said ``uninformed and inadequate theories about embryology'' in the Middle Ages led ``some theologians to speculate that specifically human life capable of receiving an immortal soul may not exist until a few weeks into pregnancy. While in canon law these theories led to a distinction in penalties between very early and later abortions, the Church's moral teaching never justified or permitted abortion at any stage of development.''

Daly said that while Catholic teaching is clear that life begins at conception, many Catholics do not agree. He said Pelosi ``agrees with the Church that we should reduce the number of abortions'' by making family planning more available such as increasing the number of comprehensive age-appropriate sex education and adoption programs, Daly said.

The Catholic Church is opposed to artificial contraception.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/7754772

[BT]

The church also has a sacrament known as confession. If disagreeing with the church about birth control and abortion is a sin, and i am not sure it is, then that is the proper arena for it to be handled.

To suggest that a Catholic should refrain fom practicing their faith for expressing an opinion i think is wrong. If it is such an onerous challenge to the Pope, then Ex-Communication should be the consequence. I don't think the church needs to go there.

[_JS]

A few thoughts.

Pelosi is wrong in the article. The Doctors of the Church, and most do not deal with this issue at all, define life at conception or before. This is why Saint Thomas Aquinas and others wrote against practices of birth control.

On the other hand, to my knowledge (and likely to the knowledge of the Archbishop) Senator Biden has obviously not had an abortion himself, nor has he procured an abortion for his wife or any other woman. These would be mortal sins in the Church. Yet, as Bt pointed out the Catholic Church has a sacrament known as the Rite of Reconciliation (or Confession). Even if we knew that Senator Biden had procured an abortion for a pregnant woman. Even if we knew that Senator Biden had murdered a fellow man in cold blood. We cannot know whether he is truly reconciled with God or not. That is ultimately between God and Joe Biden, and likely his parish priest who will not disclose such information.

Remember the people that took up the cross and followed Christ were not the people the elite of Jewish or Roman society would have any dealings with. They were not considered men (and especially women) of good character by the Sadducees or Pharisees.

The decision to receive the Eucharist (the phrasing of the article is interesting, I can't imagine a Catholic Archbishop using the term "taking communion") is a deeply personal choice of one's conscience. In the liturgy preparation just before communion we say: "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed" (Luke 7:1-10). No one is worthy of their own accord for the body and blood of Christ. But the Church asks that we reconcile our mortal sins before receiving Eucharist.

[Plane]

A few thoughts.

Pelosi is wrong in the article. The Doctors of the Church, and most do not deal with this issue at all, define life at conception or before. This is why Saint Thomas Aquinas and others wrote against practices of birth control.

On the other hand, to my knowledge (and likely to the knowledge of the Archbishop) Senator Biden has obviously not had an abortion himself, nor has he procured an abortion for his wife or any other woman. These would be mortal sins in the Church. Yet, as Bt pointed out the Catholic Church has a sacrament known as the Rite of Reconciliation (or Confession). Even if we knew that Senator Biden had procured an abortion for a pregnant woman. Even if we knew that Senator Biden had murdered a fellow man in cold blood. We cannot know whether he is truly reconciled with God or not. That is ultimately between God and Joe Biden, and likely his parish priest who will not disclose such information.

Remember the people that took up the cross and followed Christ were not the people the elite of Jewish or Roman society would have any dealings with. They were not considered men (and especially women) of good character by the Sadducees or Pharisees.

The decision to receive the Eucharist (the phrasing of the article is interesting, I can't imagine a Catholic Archbishop using the term "taking communion") is a deeply personal choice of one's conscience. In the liturgy preparation just before communion we say: "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed" (Luke 7:1-10). No one is worthy of their own accord for the body and blood of Christ. But the Church asks that we reconcile our mortal sins before receiving Eucharist.

I agree that is for the individual to decide , but it is a serious decision , no one should be takeing it lightly.

  1 Corinthians 11
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

 27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=11&version=31

[_JS]

True Plane, and for Catholics the Eucharist is not a symbolic event but a true miracle. So the Church is very serious about this: "A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup."

But, we have no idea of knowing Senator Biden's or anyone's conscience at that time. It is not my responsibility at that moment in the liturgy to stand up and say, "Person X is not worthy of receiving the Eucharist today!" Nor would I want such a burden! Honestly, I think that the Archbishop is a little out of his jurisdiction here. If there is to be a correction, it should come from Biden's own Priest or his Bishop.

[Religious Dick]

[sirs]

True Plane, and for Catholics the Eucharist is not a symbolic event but a true miracle. So the Church is very serious about this: "A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup."  But, we have no idea of knowing Senator Biden's or anyone's conscience at that time.

Tee would.  He seems to know nearly everyone's conscience, at pretty much any given time, in history.  Especially Republicans and Conservatives     

[Plane]

True Plane, and for Catholics the Eucharist is not a symbolic event but a true miracle. So the Church is very serious about this: "A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup."

But, we have no idea of knowing Senator Biden's or anyone's conscience at that time. It is not my responsibility at that moment in the liturgy to stand up and say, "Person X is not worthy of receiving the Eucharist today!" Nor would I want such a burden! Honestly, I think that the Archbishop is a little out of his jurisdiction here. If there is to be a correction, it should come from Biden's own Priest or his Bishop.

Weeeellllllll...


It is certainly within his authority to have an opinion and to give advice , can it be seen as an order or as advice?

[Xavier_Onassis]

True Plane, and for Catholics the Eucharist is not a symbolic event but a true miracle. So the Church is very serious about this: "A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup."

==========================
And yet strangely, they get ever so upset whern you refer to this as "ritual cannibalism" or "ritual Deophagy". No one argues with the word "ritual", since it is clearly a ritual, and activity performed for a religious purpose. It seems to be that the idea of eating a God sounds a tad --what's the word=-- primitive.

Few good Catholics, I believe could actually bring themselves to the ancient blood sacrifices of sheep and goaas the Hebrews performed.  Except perhaps the odd Soprano.

[Plane]

True Plane, and for Catholics the Eucharist is not a symbolic event but a true miracle. So the Church is very serious about this: "A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup."

==========================
And yet strangely, they get ever so upset whern you refer to this as "ritual cannibalism" or "ritual Deophagy". No one argues with the word "ritual", since it is clearly a ritual, and activity performed for a religious purpose. It seems to be that the idea of eating a God sounds a tad --what's the word=-- primitive.

Few good Catholics, I believe could actually bring themselves to the ancient blood sacrifices of sheep and goaas the Hebrews performed.  Except perhaps the odd Soprano.

This is a good juxtaposition.

That Jesus offered himself as the sacrifice of blood , the scapegoat , the lamb of God , whose blood is shed for us.

And that his sacrifice is the real thing that all of the sheep were just symbols for.

No one elese could do this , for all others have sins of their own to apologise for , but Jesus who owed no such debt, took on the cost of our sin.

[_JS]

XO,

It would take a bit of explaining and I'm not sure it is worth the time if you do not care to listen.

John 6:48-59

48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
50 this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."
59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

[_JS]

True Plane, and for Catholics the Eucharist is not a symbolic event but a true miracle. So the Church is very serious about this: "A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup."

But, we have no idea of knowing Senator Biden's or anyone's conscience at that time. It is not my responsibility at that moment in the liturgy to stand up and say, "Person X is not worthy of receiving the Eucharist today!" Nor would I want such a burden! Honestly, I think that the Archbishop is a little out of his jurisdiction here. If there is to be a correction, it should come from Biden's own Priest or his Bishop.

Weeeellllllll...


It is certainly within his authority to have an opinion and to give advice , can it be seen as an order or as advice?

Biden is not a member of the clergy or of a religious order. If he were his superiors would be in a specific "chain of command" for lack of a better term. It would be the equivalent of an Admiral in the Pacific giving an order to an E6 in the US Army in Germany.

But, it doesn't really work that way because, as was said - Biden is a member of the laity just like me and the other billion or so Catholics in the world. Of course the Archbishop can have opinion or advice. He has a great deal of power over his diocese. He can make a lot of decisions there. But denying a single member of the laity communion is the definition of excommunication. This is a very serious ecclesiastical punishment. Since it was not meted out latæ then it would have to be taken to a tribunal.