Bristol Palin and Murphy Brown

[BT]

Apparently, she failed to tell her own daughter about her change in position. The proof is there for all to see.

Bristol's pregnancy does not equate to a lack of knowledge of contraceptives.
It doesn't even equate to a lack of use of contraceptives.

[richpo64]

>>Bristol's pregnancy does not equate to a lack of knowledge of contraceptives. It doesn't even equate to a lack of use of contraceptives.<<

Exactly. Has anyone asked her if she was using anything? With all the vicious rumors out there why not have Oprah just ask her? Oh, that's right. She's not a democrat so Oprah won't have her on.

For those of us who are trying to be fair about this, and there are a few democrats who are, could this line of attack by some on the left be more vicious or more disgusting? Like the left's opposition to energy independence it makes you ask the question, why? Why be like this? Why be so vicious? Is it a character flaw? What?

[Xavier_Onassis]

Vicious? What vicious? There is no vicious.

There is nothing vicious about observing that pregnancy can be avoided by the use of contraceptives.

There is nothing vicious about saying that abstinence is ineffective.

There is nothing vicious about pointing out that in American society, teenage pregnancy puts the teen with a baby at a tremendous disadvantage, and therefore it is wise to avoid such a situation.

On the one hand, the Republicans want to make a big deal about what a good mother Palin is. But then, no one can deny that a woman whose daughter does not get pregnant as a teenager would be a better mother than one whose daughter did get pregnant as a teenager.

I do not think anyone can make the claim that having a pregnant teenaged daughter would make one a better leader, either.

Perhaps the Republicans want to experience the delights of victimhood.

[sirs]

Vicious? What vicious? There is no vicious.  There is nothing vicious about observing that pregnancy can be avoided by the use of contraceptives.  There is nothing vicious about saying that abstinence is ineffective.

This is amazing double speak.  Abstinence IS EFFECTIVE 100% of the time, if practiced.  Contraceptives, even if practiced 100% of the time, is NOT EFFECTIVE 100% of the time

There is nothing vicious about pointing out that in American society, teenage pregnancy puts the teen with a baby at a tremendous disadvantage, and therefore it is wise to avoid such a situation.

Which begs the rebuttal, why advocate 1 (contraceptives) while dissing and demonizing the other (abstinence), which is completely full proof effective at "puting the teen with a baby at a tremendous disadvantage, and therefore it is wise to avoid such a situation", when practiced??

[Amianthus]

There is nothing vicious about observing that pregnancy can be avoided by the use of contraceptives.

Last time I checked, even if everyone who has sex uses contraceptives, and they use those contraceptives properly, there will still be pregnancies every year.

No contraceptive is 100% effective. Even using a combination of contraceptives is not 100% effective.

I know a couple that has two children. They have never had sex without contraceptives. Both are the results of contraceptive failure.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Contraceptives, even if practiced 100% of the time, is NOT EFFECTIVE 100% of the time.

They isn't? That are a big surprise, it be.

They rate in the very high nintieth percentile.

You are now implying that Bristol Palin's pregnancy was the result of a failed BC method.
The odds are, however, that it was the result of none at all. They take surveys on these things all the time.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
For God's sake XO, do you oppose abstinence being a part of sex education?

I did not say that. I am all for teaching abstinence. But the issue is not whether abstinence should be taught. The issue is that ABSTINENCE ALONE does not work. Teenagers are chock full of hormones and oozing with lust. Abstinence is not effective for many, probably most, teenagers.

Europeans are far more open when they talk about sex. European teenagers generally become sexually active around the age of sixteen or seventeen. Yet the rate of teenage pregnancy is much, much lower in nearly every European nation than in the US. This is because we have all these Bible-thumpers running around doing everything they can to make abstinence and abstinence alone programs in the schools. In Europe, they distribute condoms and have very few teen pregnancies. In the US, they distribute pamphlets about how to not have sex and how Becky-Sue should save herself for marriage and such, and we have a higher rate of teen pregnancy. This is a cause and result affair.  

Teen pregnancy is one of several avoidable root causes of poverty, hunger and deprivation in the US. More should be done to avoid it.

[sirs]

Teen pregnancy is one of several avoidable root causes of poverty, hunger and deprivation in the US. More should be done to avoid it.

Then by all means, STOP the insidious trashing of abstinence advocation

[Amianthus]

This is a cause and result affair.  

No, it's not.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I know a couple that has two children. They have never had sex without contraceptives. Both are the results of contraceptive failure.

==========================================
I am not going to believe that you have been a witness to their every carnal act, so I think what you really mean is that they SAY that they have never had sex without contraceptives, and you believe them.

I find no difficulty in believing that you believe them, and only slightly less in believing that you heard them say this. That is, if indeed I believe that they, in fact, exist. There is always the possibility that both of them are figments of your imagination.

I know this: when I was growing up, there were no BC pills. There were condoms, diaphragms and spermicides. I grew up in a small, mostly Protestant town where people generally thought two or three children was the ideal, and in fact, very few people had more than three.

It is conceivable that Bristol Palin's unborn fetus was the result of one, two, three or perhaps even four failed BC devices plus the use of the rhythm method.

It is also possible that she was fecundated by an alien named Gorn from the Planet Koozbane in her sleep during one of the rare Aurora Borealis abductions. Possible, not probable, but possible.

However, the greatest odds are that said pregnancy was the result of the non use of any BC device at all.

[Amianthus]

There is always the possibility that both of them are figments of your imagination.

Yes, just like being able to turn the batteries around in a flashlight and it will still work is a figment of my imagination.

You make an assumption based on odds and expect everyone to believe it is fact. I'll give you a real fact - there are plenty of children born to parents who use birth control every year.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Teen pregnancy is one of several avoidable root causes of poverty, hunger and deprivation in the US. More should be done to avoid it.

Then by all means, STOP the insidious trashing of abstinence advocation
==========================================================
I did not trash (insidiously or otherwise) advocating abstinence, I merely stated that it is not effective because it he hard to refrain from sex when one is a teenager, and that it should be used with other, more realistic methods for best results.

Second, you seem to think that if I say that it is unrealistic to rely on abstinence alone that in some mystical way, it will cause teenaged girls to become pregnant. For this to happen, there have to be two circumstances present: (1) teenage girls have to be actually paying attention to what I am posting here, and (2) they have to be really strange teenage girls, who go out and screw around because I said that they are likely to get pregnant if they do just that.


I offer the following as a public service:

IF THERE ARE ANY TEENAGE GIRLS READING THIS PLEASE TAKE CAREFUL NOTE THAT IF YOU WANT TO AVOID GETTING KNOCKED UP, THE VERY BEST WAY TO DO THIS IS TO NOT HAVE ANY SEX AT ALL.  IN THE EVENT THAT YOUR BOYFRIEND TELLS YOU ABOUT HOW PAINFUL THIS IS AND HOW IT WILL CAUSE HIS GONADS TO TURN BLUE, WEAR RUBBER PANTIES AND THEN GIVE THE FOOL A HAND JOB.
PREGNANCY WILL ALSO NOT OCCUR FROM HAVING SEX WITH OTHER FEMALES.

ORAL SEX SHOULD ONLY BE ENGAGED IN AFTER EXTENSIVE STUDY OF HOW REPRODUCTION OCCURS.

GENITAL SEX WILL NORMALLY RESULT IN PREGNANCY. THERE ARE MANY METHODS OF BIRTH CONTROL, AND THEY ARE AVAILABLE ON THE INTERNET AT PLANNEDPARENTHOOD.COM AND MANY OTHER SITES. THESE SHOULD BE STUDIED CAREFULLY BY YOU AND YOUR OPPOSITE-SEX PARTNER EXTENSIVELY AND ALL DIRECTIONS REGARDING THEIR USE SHOULD BE STRICTLY ADHERED TO.

I trust that this will quell your moral outrage.



 

 

[sirs]

There is always the possibility that both of them are figments of your imagination.

Yes, just like being able to turn the batteries around in a flashlight and it will still work is a figment of my imagination.  You make an assumption based on odds and expect everyone to believe it is fact. I'll give you a real fact - there are plenty of children born to parents who use birth control every year.

And I'm guessing Xo will be unable to demonstrate even 1 case of a child born to a couple who practiced abstinence

[sirs]

Teen pregnancy is one of several avoidable root causes of poverty, hunger and deprivation in the US. More should be done to avoid it.

Then by all means, STOP the insidious trashing of abstinence advocation
==========================================================
I did not trash (insidiously or otherwise) advocating abstinence, I merely stated that it is not effective because it he hard to refrain from sex when one is a teenager, and that it should be used with other, more realistic methods for best results.

It is effective 100% of the time, when practiced.  Your issue is you support the notion that teens have no self control, what-so-ever, "raging hormones" and the like.  Funny thing is, it IS possible, IF it is practiced, and IF it's not consistently demagogued as being supposedly ineffective, to which that is completely false.  It's 100% effective, WHEN practiced.  BC is NOT 100% effective, even when practiced 100% of the time.

Second, you seem to think that if I say that it is unrealistic to rely on abstinence alone ...

Stop there, I did NOT say that.  Please pay attention.  I said it's 100% effective compared to all other forms of BC.

[Xavier_Onassis]

My flashlights will not work if the batteries are reversed. Not one of them.

How many is "plenty"?

It seems to be rather vague for a "fact". I prefer more precise facts.


I am sure that abstinence works, other than persistent rumors coming from the Holy Mother Church.

I think there was a case of parthenogenesis discovered in England in the 1960's as well.

The trouble is not with the practice of abstinence, but with the likelihood that it will be practiced at all
 by many teenagers, being as they are filled with lust and curiosity and every blesséd thing is sold with sex these days. But you know that. I think I have exhausted every possible nook and cranny of this rather silly issue and will  retire from it with the following announcement: I will not vote for the Republican Party ticket under any circumstances, even if Bristol Palin gives birth to a mutant quasi-human child of Gorn from the Planet Koozbane and it eats humans alive, even the Democratic ticket in its entirety.
 

[sirs]

Apparently Xo isn't much of a believer in practicing what he preaches.  Not too stunning a revelation, I'm afraid