Conscience

[_JS]

I was a little short with Plane on a different topic and I apologize. I want to try a different tactic for helping to understand something that is important.

An easy question, it shouldn't require any Internet searches and isn't a trick question in any way. Anyone may answer.

What is conscience?



Note "conscience" is very different from "consciousness" so please try not to confuse the two.

[Xavier_Onassis]

In cartoons, one often sees the character with a tiny angel on one shoulder and a tiny devil on the other. The angel is the conscience. The devil represents a demon, or perhaps the Freudian Id.

In Pinocchio, the main character is made of wood and lacks a conscience, and is awarded a highly moral, nattily dressed insect named Jimminy Cricket to be his conscience.

One can ignore one's conscience by shaking one's head violently. This makes them fall off one's shoulders and shut the Hell up.

The three visitors to Scrooge, the Spirit of Christmas Past, the Spirit of Christmas Present, and the Spirit of Christmas Future were manifestations that caused Scrooge's conscience to reboot.

The conscience is generally regarded as the moral compass of the individual, that distinguishes right from wrong.

Upon occasion, it seems that the conscience gets ill and informs the individual that Martians are stealing his underwear or are lusting after his spleen, or that weasels are ripping his flesh.

[_JS]

Right XO.

This is the most common view of conscience.

It is an innate, internal ability to use reason and intellect to make moral decisions.

If one is religious the innate ability may come from God (Holy Spirit, etc). If one is not religious it may be a biological and/or psychological impulse. Regardless, it is most often used as an individual characteristic that is internal and often employed before (but sometimes after) the decision.

Often people express this as a "little voice" or "pangs of guilt" or "knowing right from wrong." Even our civil law uses this notion of conscience as there is an age where one's intellect is formed enough to make such decisions and one's mental capacity has to be high enough to have an "informed conscience" (i.e. mental retardation).

Is there anyone who vehemently disagrees with this view of the conscience?

[Universe Prince]

I don't vehemently disagree. But I think conscience is not spiritual or biological. I think it is psychological, and formed by how we are brought up in society, whatever that society is, and by our belief system, whether that is religious or merely philosophical. It has less to do with making moral decisions, imo, than making socially acceptable decisions. This is a simple explanation, of course, not the book that one could write, so please don't tell me it doesn't explain everything. I know that already.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I don't think that conscience comes from God, since many people and even cultures do not believe in God and still, they have a conscience. Often what is moral in one society is immoral in another. We don't worry a lot about dowries in the West, and in some places no one would get married without one. Women feel pangs of discomfort because their shoes do not match their purse, at least some of them do.

So I think it is a psychological phenomena, basically.

[_JS]

I don't vehemently disagree. But I think conscience is not spiritual or biological. I think it is psychological, and formed by how we are brought up in society, whatever that society is, and by our belief system, whether that is religious or merely philosophical. It has less to do with making moral decisions, imo, than making socially acceptable decisions. This is a simple explanation, of course, not the book that one could write, so please don't tell me it doesn't explain everything. I know that already.

Not at all...that's a perfectly fine explanation. I think that you are saying that one's conscience reflects societal norms as well. So there is an external force? Would you still agree that the conscience is internal, i.e. the psychology is internal? And is it individual? Or do you think it is completely societal and external?

[Xavier_Onassis]

I would say that it is internal, but is a psychological result of the way that the individual mind interprets and reacts to society and culture.

What are serious problems of conscious for some people are not really matters of morality: the appropriateness of a gift, whether a woman's shoes and handbag match, matters concerning dowries in some cultures--matters of etiquette. These are not really moral issues, but they are often regarded as more important.

I believe that religious people attribute their conscience to divine entities, but since people and cultures that are not at all religious also have feelings of conscience, I don't think that is the true source. For centuries people attributed their romantic feelings to their hearts rather than their heads, so such confusion is not abnormal.

[_JS]

What many people probably don't realize is that this view of the conscience is completely modern. It dates no further back than to the 17th century or so.

In the time of Paul, Constantine, or Muhammad...this would have been a completely alien view of the conscience.

[Universe Prince]

I think that you are saying that one's conscience reflects societal norms as well. So there is an external force? Would you still agree that the conscience is internal, i.e. the psychology is internal? And is it individual? Or do you think it is completely societal and external?

Yes, it functions internally. And yes, it is individual, because each individual's mind and experiences are specifically unique to him.

[_JS]

I think that you are saying that one's conscience reflects societal norms as well. So there is an external force? Would you still agree that the conscience is internal, i.e. the psychology is internal? And is it individual? Or do you think it is completely societal and external?

Yes, it functions internally. And yes, it is individual, because each individual's mind and experiences are specifically unique to him.

Right.

And that too is very much a modern view of conscience.

It is a post-enlightenment view (though yours and XO's both contain some post-modernist elements as well) of what the conscience is. These views would have been completely alien to those in medieval times or antiquity.

This is the danger (and the point I was trying to make to Plane) in assuming what people in different eras of history thought.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Paul, Constantine, or Muhammad...this would have been a completely alien view of the conscience.
==========================
These guys believe in demons. They believed that the Earth was the center of the Universe and that an was the center and main purpose of Creation.

[_JS]

Paul, Constantine, or Muhammad...this would have been a completely alien view of the conscience.
==========================
These guys believe in demons. They believed that the Earth was the center of the Universe and that an was the center and main purpose of Creation.

All three were incredibly intelligent people. They may have had ignorance of some science that we have now, but they were brilliant in many respects.

Paul was a brilliant theologian (and in many ways the first theologian).
Constantine was a master of politics and warfare.
Muhammad was also a master of politics and he understood people with amazing acumen.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Paul was a brilliant theologian (and in many ways the first theologian).
Constantine was a master of politics and warfare.
Muhammad was also a master of politics and he understood people with amazing acumen.

I would say that Paul was an excellent PR man. As a theologian, he was irrational and inconsistent, and a misogynist to boot.

Constantine was good at manipulating people.Of course, these were highly superstitious and uneducated people.

Mohammad was good at what he did, but he was a wacky fanatic who fortunately was born into one of the wackiest assemblages of fanaticism of a fanatical time.

I sure as hell would not take advice from any of them.

[Universe Prince]

This is the danger (and the point I was trying to make to Plane) in assuming what people in different eras of history thought.

Ah. I wondered what you were getting at. Yes, that is a danger.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Nonetheless, there is still a valid concept known as "conscience". The actual definition or opinions regarding the origins of this may have changed over the years, but i still is a valid concept. We all seem to agree on what a conscience is.


Don't we?