Author Topic: cowardly Chinese government gives in to "Enemies of the People" farmers  (Read 1664 times)

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Universe Prince

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4975695.ece
         Anxious at the spreading unrest among farmers left behind in the rush to get rich, China’s Communist Party leaders yesterday unveiled sweeping reforms to give its 730 million or more rural residents more say in what they do with their land.

[...]

Approved at a twice-a-year plenum of the party’s Central Committee earlier this month, the scheme will allow farmers to transfer their land-use rights and to join share-holding entities with their farmland. The policies, still lacking in crucial details, effectively give farmers – rather than village leaders – the authority to decide how to use their land.

[...]

Public ownership of land is a fundamental tenet of Communist Party rule and any attempt to enshrine farmers’ ownership of their plots provokes howls of anger from Marxist ideologists. However, the current system of 30-year leases that can be extended gives effective ownership while maintaining the fig-leaf of public control – but has created a system rife with abuse.

Under the new rules, severe punishment would be meted out to anyone violating farmers’ interests.

The farmers want more control over their land to protect them from abuse. Huh. Who would have guessed? I guess China will break down into anarchy and chaos now. And yes, I am being sarcastic.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: cowardly Chinese government gives in to "Enemies of the People" farmers
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2008, 01:59:01 PM »
The Chinese government does something right, and you have no reaction other than to call them "cowardly".

I imagine that running a nation of 1,300,000,000 people is about four times as hard as ruling one with only 300,000,000 people. It seems to me that this is precisely the correct decision. Obviousy the current leaders are not strict Marxist ideologues, or they would not be allowing capitalist ventures to stock the shelves of Wal*Marts, nor would they be lending bazillions to the government of the US which might prevent them from buying Iraqi oil someday.

The Great Leap Forward was a great ideological stunt, but it resulted in a dismal failure, despite its Maoist purity. The leaders of China have demonstrated themselves to be better at capitalism than any capitalist governments, since none of the letter has ever managed to sustain a 10%+ growth rate for a decade as they have done.

The harmonious balance is for China to have precisely the proper number of peasants to leave the land to work in the cities: too many, and you have riots, too few, and production is not sustained. This is a measure that will prevent too rapid an exodus from the farms to the cities. It will also allow some farmers to increase production for a more diverse (more ducks and pugs, less rice) diet, as the city people become more prosperous and picky about what they eat.

I would not call this cowardly. It is more like a work of genius.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

richpo64

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Re: cowardly Chinese government gives in to "Enemies of the People" farmers
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2008, 02:16:29 PM »
Joe the Farmer?

Michael Tee

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Re: cowardly Chinese government gives in to "Enemies of the People" farmers
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2008, 02:34:24 PM »
I thought "cowardly" was being used ironically or sarcastically, mimicking the outrage of Marxist ideologues.

Compromise is not necessarily "cowardly" and is actually allowed for in Marxist doctrine, most famously in Lenin's New Economic Policy ("NEP") of the early 1920s, when some ownership of small land holdings and small business was permitted after the uncompromising, sweeping nationalizations of "War Communism."

Another, if more short-lived, concession to private land ownership was made by Ho Chi Minh when the issue was threatening to split the National Liberation Front, although this was later revoked in the mid-1960s.

If Lenin and Uncle Ho could make concessions to private ownership, so can the Communist Party of China.  Party leadership must at all times be in touch with the grass roots and hyper-sensitive to their grievances and discontent.  Unaddressed grievances must not be allowed to fester.  I would never second-guess the Party leadership on a major issue.  They much more than anyone else have kept an ear to the ground, know the level of the discontent and have surely weighed the merits and demerits of all alternative means (including the Iron Fist) of dealing with the situation.  If they feel land reform is the way to go, then that's good enough for me.  They're still Communists and I still love 'em. 

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: cowardly Chinese government gives in to "Enemies of the People" farmers
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2008, 03:09:56 PM »
If they feel land reform is the way to go, then that's good enough for me.  They're still Communists and I still love 'em. 

I was recently in Paraguay, where most people are still rural, and nearly all the land belongs to a very few people. I stayed on a 30 hectare (74.1 acre) farm owned by an East German guy named Peter and his Paraguayan wife, their three kids. He went to a technical school in the GDP and came to Paraguay in the mid-1990's. He calls his farm Granja Modelo El Roble (Oak tree model farm) and he raises cattle, pigs, docks, geese, and chickens and most of what he feeds them, and he has three cabins for backpacker visitors, where $100,000 guaranies (actually $25) will cover your room and board, with a little exgtra if you drink beer. Not all of the land is useful even for pasture, so Peter dug a couple of ponds and raises fish: dorado, carp, and a very tasty, very large South American catfish called a surimí.

When I spoke with him about land reform, he said that for the Paraguayan government to give a local campesino the 40 acres that is being demanded, that this would be a death sentence, because the average campesino has no equipment that is needed to farm with, such as a tiller or a tractor, and lacks the knowledge to do this. He based what he said on his many attempts to find someone to perform chores around the farm (all Peter's children and under 8, and go to school). After hiring a dozen men and a number of women to help, and paying them above average wages (I think this was $3.00 a day, plus room and board), he finally found a guy and his mither in law who have learned how to at least follow directions and keep things going. Peter speaks Spanish and Guarani, and of course, German, and has taught himself to speak English, though he has trouble writing it. He also has a small store in town, where he sells his milk, cheese, and products from neighboring farms. He is a very smart guy and a good farmer, I would say. He is also an excellent guide.

To date, no Latin American country has been very successful at land reform. Even though the land is parceled out and is fertile, as in Chile, Bolivia, Peru and Mexico, most of the farmers are not successful at much more than subsistence agriculture. I suppose Chinese are better at farming, because they have generations of tradition.


What has happened in Paraguay lately is that the few farms that have been redistributed have resulted in the new farmer selling out after a year or less.  Peter's farm has electricity, running water, and refrigeration, but many of his neighbors have none of these, and spend a lot of their time doing much work by hand, including pumping water from the well, plowing with a horse, ox or mule, and spending half a day traveling the 15 miles to Concepcion by oxcart.

I make no pretensions to being an expert on land reform, but it seems to me that Peter is right. Education, at least 40 acres of decent cropland, and electricity and machinery are absolute prerequisites

You can see pictures of Peter's farm at http://www.paraguay.ch. (He has a Swiss friend).
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Universe Prince

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Re: cowardly Chinese government gives in to "Enemies of the People" farmers
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2008, 10:59:16 PM »

The Chinese government does something right, and you have no reaction other than to call them "cowardly".


That was, as Michael Tee correctly noted, sarcasm. But I simply adore the fact that you and he are both lauding what is basically an increased recognition of property rights as good communist policy. Apparently anything is communist if the communist party leaders decide to do it. China's economy grows and grows as the Chinese government allows more and more capitalism, and you guys are like, "Wow, this is great communism!" Someone spoofing you couldn't write something funnier than that.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Michael Tee

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Re: cowardly Chinese government gives in to "Enemies of the People" farmers
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2008, 01:57:53 AM »
<<China's economy grows and grows as the Chinese government allows more and more capitalism, and you guys are like, "Wow, this is great communism!" Someone spoofing you couldn't write something funnier than that.>>

You obviously mistook what was in issue.  It wasn't capitalism vs. communism, it was ideology vs. pragmatism.

Capitalist concessions to workers' rights, as in the 40-hour week, abolition of child labour, rights of unions to organize, minimum wage legislation, federal oversight of various industries - - all these are fairly unremarkable concessions made by laissez-faire capitalism to the interests of the working class.

Communists make similar concessions to the capitalist ethic and the profit motive.  The underlying principles of the socialist state remain unimpaired:  the dictatorship of the proletariat through its vanguard, the Communist Party; and state ownership of the major means of production

Plane

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Re: cowardly Chinese government gives in to "Enemies of the People" farmers
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2008, 02:06:48 AM »
"...the dictatorship of the proletariat through its vanguard, the Communist Party; and ...."


That one always gets me , what controll does the proletariat have on its vanguard?

Universe Prince

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Re: cowardly Chinese government gives in to "Enemies of the People" farmers
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2008, 04:08:52 AM »

You obviously mistook what was in issue.  It wasn't capitalism vs. communism, it was ideology vs. pragmatism.


On the contrary, I get that it's about pragmatism. I'm just not sure you get why is it pragmatic.


Capitalist concessions to workers' rights, as in the 40-hour week, abolition of child labour, rights of unions to organize, minimum wage legislation, federal oversight of various industries - - all these are fairly unremarkable concessions made by laissez-faire capitalism to the interests of the working class.


Not sure what laissez-faire capitalism made those concessions. The U.S. hasn't had laissez-faire capitalism in... well, pretty much ever. Minimum wage legislation... nevermind, let's not have that argument again.


Communists make similar concessions to the capitalist ethic and the profit motive.  The underlying principles of the socialist state remain unimpaired:  the dictatorship of the proletariat through its vanguard, the Communist Party; and state ownership of the major means of production


The dictatorship of the proletariat? Now pull the other one. If they're the dictators, why do they have to protest to get the "vanguard" to pay attention to them?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Michael Tee

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Re: cowardly Chinese government gives in to "Enemies of the People" farmers
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2008, 10:31:45 AM »
The dictatorship of the proletariat? Now pull the other one. If they're the dictators, why do they have to protest to get the "vanguard" to pay attention to them?
===================================================================
Because the vanguard is still composed of humans.  They make mistakes, go off on wrong tracks, don't listen.  Sometimes when somebody isn't listening, you have to start to raise your voice.  If they're still distracted, you grab their shoulder.  There is an escalating series of tactics designed to get the attention of someone who doesn't seem to be paying attention.

The key question is, do the leaders finally "get it?"  In this case, perhaps it took awhile, maybe longer than it would have taken Lenin or Uncle Ho, but yes, the leaders DID "get it" before things had deteriorated too far.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: cowardly Chinese government gives in to "Enemies of the People" farmers
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2008, 11:15:04 AM »
The key question is, do the leaders finally "get it?"  In this case, perhaps it took awhile, maybe longer than it would have taken Lenin or Uncle Ho, but yes, the leaders DID "get it" before things had deteriorated too far.

====================================================
I don't think Lenin or Uncle Ho were as good at managing things as the current leaders of China. You have but to look at the results.

Lenin, Ho and Mao were great at leading the Revolution. Mao was absolutely disastrous at managing the PRC from 1950 until his death. It is hard to find a worse economic leader anywhere in human history than the author of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. Immense stupidity, with the exception of the Kims in North Korea. The one good thing about Juniorbush is that he has to leave after f*cking things up for only 8 years. Mao screwed things up for 25.

Mao is ever so much better as a guy to put on the money. just like Mariscal Lopez of Paraguay. Dead, they can't harm anyone.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Universe Prince

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Re: cowardly Chinese government gives in to "Enemies of the People" farmers
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2008, 02:55:51 PM »

Because the vanguard is still composed of humans.  They make mistakes, go off on wrong tracks, don't listen.  Sometimes when somebody isn't listening, you have to start to raise your voice.  If they're still distracted, you grab their shoulder.  There is an escalating series of tactics designed to get the attention of someone who doesn't seem to be paying attention.

The key question is, do the leaders finally "get it?"  In this case, perhaps it took awhile, maybe longer than it would have taken Lenin or Uncle Ho, but yes, the leaders DID "get it" before things had deteriorated too far.


Yes, I get that. But they still don't come off looking like dictators. They come off looking like people who are not dictating anything, but rather at the mercy of a dictating government.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--