Author Topic: Unamerican Activities  (Read 5202 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Lanya

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3300
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Unamerican Activities
« on: October 10, 2008, 10:43:58 PM »

The Palins’ un-American activities

Imagine if the Obamas had hooked up with a violently anti-American group in league with the government of Iran.

Editor’s note: You can find Salon’s complete coverage of Sarah Palin here.

By David Talbot


Todd Heisler/The New York Times/Redux


Oct. 7, 2008 | “My government is my worst enemy. I’m going to fight them with any means at hand.”

This was former revolutionary terrorist Bill Ayers back in his old Weather Underground days, right? Imagine what Sarah Palin is going to do with this incendiary quote as she tears into Barack Obama this week.

Only one problem. The quote is from Joe Vogler, the raging anti-American who founded the Alaska Independence Party. Inconveniently for Palin, that’s the very same secessionist party that her husband, Todd, belonged to for seven years and that she sent a shout-out to as Alaska governor earlier this year. (“Keep up the good work,” Palin told AIP members. “And God bless you.”)

AIP chairwoman Lynette Clark told me recently that Sarah Palin is her kind of gal. “She’s Alaskan to the bone … she sounds just like Joe Vogler.”

So who are these America-haters that the Palins are pallin’ around with?

Before his strange murder in 1993, party founder Vogler preached armed insurrection against the United States of America. Vogler, who always carried a Magnum with him, was fond of saying, “When the [federal] bureaucrats come after me, I suggest they wear red coats. They make better targets. In the federal government are the biggest liars in the United States, and I hate them with a passion. They think they own [Alaska]. There comes a time when people will choose to die with honor rather than live with dishonor. That time may be coming here. Our goal is ultimate independence by peaceful means under a minimal government fully responsive to the people. I hope we don’t have to take human life, but if they go on tramping on our property rights, look out, we’re ready to die.”

This quote is from “Coming Into the Country,” by John McPhee, who traipsed around Alaska’s remote gold mining country with Vogler for his 1991 book. The violent-tempered secessionist vowed to McPhee that if any federal official tried to stop him from polluting Alaska’s rivers with his earth-moving equipment, he would “run over him with a Cat and turn mosquitoes loose on him while he dies.”

Vogler wasn’t just a blowhard either. He put his secessionist ideas into action, working to build AIP membership to 20,000 — an impressive figure by Alaska standards — and to elect party member Walter Hickel as governor in 1990.

Vogler’s greatest moment of glory was to be his 1993 appearance before the United Nations to denounce United States “tyranny” before the entire world and to demand Alaska’s freedom. The Alaska secessionist had persuaded the government of Iran to sponsor his anti-American harangue.

That’s right … Iran. The Islamic dictatorship. The taker of American hostages. The rogue nation that McCain and Palin have excoriated Obama for suggesting we diplomatically engage. That Iran.

AIP leaders allege that Vogler, who was murdered that year by a fellow secessionist, was taken out by powerful forces in the U.S. before he could reach his U.N. platform. “The United States government would have been deeply embarrassed,” by Vogler’s U.N. speech, darkly suggests Clark. “And we can’t have that, can we?”

The Republican ticket is working hard this week to make Barack Obama’s tenuous connection to graying, ’60s revolutionary Bill Ayers a major campaign issue. But the Palins’ connection to anti-American extremism is much more central to their political biographies.

Imagine the uproar if Michelle Obama was revealed to have joined a black nationalist party whose founder preached armed secession from the United States and who enlisted the government of Iran in his cause? The Obama campaign would probably not have survived such an explosive revelation. Particularly if Barack Obama himself was videotaped giving the anti-American secessionists his wholehearted support just months ago.

Where’s the outrage, Sarah Palin has been asking this week, in her attacks on Obama’s fuzzy ties to Ayers? The question is more appropriate when applied to her own disturbing associations.



http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/10/07/palins_unamerican/
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Unamerican Activities
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2008, 10:56:05 PM »
Hmmm.

Did Palin try to coverup her husbands membership in the Party?

Like Obama did with his relationship with Ayers?



Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Unamerican Activities
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2008, 11:08:55 PM »
Huh.  Radical husband trumps radical preacher, eh?  Palin's in bed every night with radical Todd.  Can't say that about Obama and the Rev.

What's this bullshit about Obama covering up?  Did he claim he didn't know Bill Ayers?  He admits he knows the man.  Palin can't very well deny knowing Todd, now, can she?  Let's get real here.

But what about Palin's anti-Semitic preacher?  The guy who thinks there are too many Jews in too many high places in American business?  Why don't we hear more about this guy?  He's really interesting.

What about McCain's support of Nicaraguan death squads?  Village Voice once ran some great reportage titled "Crimes of the Contras."  Why don't we hear about THOSE atrocities that McCain backed to the hilt.

Why don't we see more clips of McCain saying he's OK with the US being in Iraq for 100 years?  Or "The fundamentals of the economy are strong?"

Why is Obama keeping keeping the gloves on?  Where's that knock-out punch?

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Unamerican Activities
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2008, 11:30:16 PM »
Quote
Did he claim he didn't know Bill Ayers?

"Just some guy in the neighborhood." says Honest Obama

And back to the original question, when asked did Palin deny, obfuscate, or otherwise be less than candid about her relationship with this group?

Apples to Apples dontcha know.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Unamerican Activities
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2008, 11:35:03 PM »
<<And back to the original question, when asked did Palin deny, obfuscate, or otherwise be less than candid about her relationship with this group?>.

She denies membership, some of the group say she was a member.

When did Obama "deny, obfuscate or otherwise be less than candid" about Ayers?

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Unamerican Activities
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2008, 11:44:58 PM »
Quote
She denies membership, some of the group say she was a member.

Then I'm sure these members can produce proof. Like registration, or contributions.

Quote
When did Obama "deny, obfuscate or otherwise be less than candid" about Ayers?

Since day one.

Just some guy in the neighborhoods. Their kids go to the same school, according to Obama's campaign manager, neat trik considering the age differences.

No mention of the two foundations they worked together with. No mention of the law firm connection, where Michelle worked with Bernadette. The list goes on and on and on.

You were right. Obama should have gotten out in front of this. He didn't and that shows candor and judgment problems.






Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Unamerican Activities
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2008, 12:28:14 AM »
<<Just some guy in the neighborhoods. Their kids go to the same school, according to Obama's campaign manager, neat trik considering the age differences.>>

So what?  I know lots of people in my neighbourhood.  When we first moved into the neighbourhood we had a 1-year-old and a 3-year-old.  When we met older neigbours, who the hell knew what they were up to when I was eight years old?  Be real.

<<No mention of the two foundations they worked together with. >>

Do-gooder foundations have people on the board for a lot of different reasons.  They're not all worker bees and even the worker bees don't necessarily work on the same projects together.  Besides, how many times have you been asked, "Where do you know Jim from?" and given an answer that falls short of a total recap of every single thing you and Jim ever worked on together?

<<No mention of the law firm connection, where Michelle worked with Bernadette. >>

Hundreds of people in the firm.  Big place.  I worked in the same firm as my wife's best friend's sister.  She happened to know who I was, but if she didn't, neither one of us would have realized who we were working with.

<<The list goes on and on and on.>>

Well, sure, but if it goes on and on the way you showed me, it's meaningless.

<<You were right. Obama should have gotten out in front of this. He didn't and that shows candor and judgment problems. >>

I meant he should have endorsed Bill, not distanced himself.  I wasn't referring to any alleged cover-up.  However, let's assume there's something to what you say.  I agree then there was a candor shortfall.  He shoulda been totally up-front.  As far as judgment goes, it's only judgment on a relatively unimportant topic, namely, how to handle personally embarrassing news.  Judgment on the Big Issues remains a no-contest situation.  McCain said invade Iraq and Obama said no.  That's a HUGE gap in judgment and on a crucial issue.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 12:34:42 AM by Michael Tee »

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Unamerican Activities
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2008, 12:33:12 AM »
You asked abot the coverup. I gave examples.

Quote
Obama should have gotten out in front of this. He didn't and that shows candor and judgment problems.

Precisely.


Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Unamerican Activities
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2008, 10:08:50 AM »
How is this any sort of coverup?

What information is being withheld?

Why on Earth should it matter?
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Unamerican Activities
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2008, 11:02:17 AM »
Quote
How is this any sort of coverup?

He was asked about his relationship with Ayers.

He deflected by saying he was just some guy in the neighborhood.

Not a candid thorough answer by any means.




Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Unamerican Activities
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2008, 11:43:26 AM »
A 'cover up" suggests something illegal, or suspected of being illegal.

There is no implication that Obama and Ayers had ever committed, or were planning to commit, any illegal act.

This is not any sort of cover up.

If Obama were to walk right up to your front door and politely tell you exactly what his relationship with Ayers is and has been in full detail, it would not change your mind. I doubt that you would bother to write it up and inform the rest of us or the press, or anyone.
Ayers himself is no threat to anyone, so how could Obama knowing this guy cause a threat?

It's like your getting all jumpy about catching polio from someone who was cured forty years ago.

This is a singularly dumb non-issue, and McCain and Palin trying to call Obama a traitor to his country or to suggest that he is in any way connected to terrorists, Muslims or (gasp!) Muslim terrorists, which why Rove would harp on this total non-issue, is heating up a bunch of racists, fanatics, and fanatical racists, that will cause all sorts of problems when Obama is elected.

That is not in keeping with the idea of "Country First".

Nothing Karl Rove does or has ever done in his Rovian mode is patriotic or has served this country in any way.
 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Lanya

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3300
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Unamerican Activities
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2008, 02:46:06 PM »
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Unamerican Activities
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2008, 02:51:04 PM »
Quote
A 'cover up" suggests something illegal, or suspected of being illegal.

No it means that you are trying to hide something.

Quote
If Obama were to walk right up to your front door and politely tell you exactly what his relationship with Ayers is and has been in full detail, it would not change your mind.

The fact that Obama would feel the need to come to my dorr and come clean about his relationship, indicates that he has not been completely candid in the first place. But if he did i would report it here.

It is superbly dumb and dishonest to assume that this is about Ayers, it is about Obama being less than honest about Ayers, as has been his custom about all sorts or questionable relationships he has had during his rise to power.

Obama knowing Ayers is not the threat, Obama engaging in constant coverups is the threat.





Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Unamerican Activities
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2008, 02:52:15 PM »
Quote
A 'cover up" suggests something illegal, or suspected of being illegal.

No it means that you are trying to hide something.

Quote
If Obama were to walk right up to your front door and politely tell you exactly what his relationship with Ayers is and has been in full detail, it would not change your mind.

The fact that Obama would feel the need to come to my dorr and come clean about his relationship, indicates that he has not been completely candid in the first place. But if he did i would report it here.

It is superbly dumb and dishonest to assume that this is about Ayers, it is about Obama being less than honest about Ayers, as has been his custom about all sorts or questionable relationships he has had during his rise to power.

Obama knowing Ayers is not the threat, Obama engaging in constant coverups is the threat.







Did Obama have a mentor?

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Unamerican Activities
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2008, 02:55:24 PM »