Author Topic: The Islamofascist War that isn't  (Read 18969 times)

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Plane

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Re: The Islamofascist War that isn't
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2007, 07:58:52 PM »
<<Yes [al Qaeda thought it could bring the U.S. to its knees in a slug-fest.>>

That's patently absurd. 



I think so too, but it exactly what they said they would do , and exactly what they were prepareing to do.

I claim that this was their plan , I am not claiming that this was a smart plan.

As we took controll of Afgani territory , we found enourmous stocks of ammunition ,lots of Al Queda trained to meet us on the feild and no provision for going elesewhere . Osama has been telling everyone for years that he (with the help of Allah) defeated the Soviet forces in Afganistan. Perhaps he was taken in by his own propaganda.

sirs

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Re: The Islamofascist War that isn't
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2007, 08:05:26 PM »
I claim that this was their plan , I am not claiming that this was a smart plan.

That's the debunking commentary in a nut shell.  Well summized Plane.  Yet in the meantime, they'd still plan and target and kill as many non-muslims as they can, specifically those located in the U.S. and Israel, all with the iedology that their eventual goal is simply a matter of time.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: The Islamofascist War that isn't
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2007, 11:11:36 PM »
<<I think so too, but it exactly what they said they would do [bring the U.S. to its knees], and exactly what they were prepareing to do.>>

That's absurd.  It would have been absurd for them to have claimed they could do it, and it IS absurd for you to claim that they claimed they could do it. 

<<I claim that this was their plan , I am not claiming that this was a smart plan.>>

Well, then you should have no trouble finding quotes from Osama bin Laden's pre-invasion speeches or intervews where he claimed that he could carry out that plan.  And just to clarify things, I am not referring to any claims that he might have made after the invasion that al Qaeda could bring America to its knees in Afghanistan or in Iraq, I mean claims that al Qaeda could bring America to its knees in America.  And similarly, I am not referring to claims that "in the long run" America will be destroyed.  Every empire is destroyed in the long run.  I mean claims that in this generation or the next, al Qaeda would bring America to its knees.

<<As we took controll of Afgani territory , we found enourmous stocks of ammunition . . . >>

Get serious, plane.  "Enormous stocks of ammunition" could mean anything, you don't put a number on it but whatever it is, it couldn't possibly be one one-thousandth of the stock of ammunition that the U.S. maintains.  To claim that with its "enormous stocks" of ammunition, al Qaeda planned to bring America to its knees is just plain idiotic.

<< . . . ,lots of Al Queda trained to meet us on the feild>>

"Lots of 'em," eh?  Enormous numbers of them or just lots of them?  Your arguments are getting sillier by the second.

<< . . . and no provision for going elesewhere .>>

Well, that in itself should negate your whole argument.  How the hell could they bring America to its knees if they all stayed in Afghanistan?  America could pull out and let the whole fucking country sink into the depths of hell and it wouldn't have the most minuscule effect on the Dow Jones or on the average American's standard of living.

<< Osama has been telling everyone for years that he (with the help of Allah) defeated the Soviet forces in Afganistan. Perhaps he was taken in by his own propaganda.>>

Perhaps we're talking at cross-purposes.  Osama may well have said he could force the American invasion forces to their knees in Afghanistan.  He may well be able to do that.  It's a long jump from defeating a foreign invader on your home turf to pursuing the invader into his home turf and forcing him to his knees there.  You claim they (al Qaeda) wanted a fight with the U.S.  I'll go along with that, to this extent only  - - they wanted the U.S. to invade a Muslim country - - the fight would be there and the invasion itself would touch off a wave of anti-Americanism so strong that the regional puppet regimes would fall.

I believe that by invading Afghanistan (which they may have had to do anyway) and Iraq, the Americans have acted exactly as al Qaeda wanted them to.   What remains to be seen is whether al Qaeda can reap the full benefit of the American actions. 

Plane

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Re: The Islamofascist War that isn't
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2007, 03:08:39 AM »
http://www.usvetdsp.com/osam_qts.htm

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/edicts.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3966817.stm

I have benefited so greatly from the jihad in Afghanistan that it would have been impossible for me to gain such a benefit from any other chance and this cannot be measured by tens of years but rather more than that. Praise and gratitude be to God. We saw the brutality of the Russians bombing Mujaheddins' positions, by grace of God, we dug a good number of huge tunnels and built in them some storage places and in some others we built a hospital. So our experience in this jihad was great, by the grace of God, praise and glory be to Him, and the most of what we benefited from was that the myth of the superpower was destroyed not only in my mind but also in the minds of all Muslims. Slumber and fatigue vanished and so was the terror which the U.S. would use in its media by attributing itself superpower status or which the Soviet Union used by attributing itself as a superpower.
Osama bin Laden
CNN interview 1997


The exact numbers of Al Queda trainees or the exact tonnage of munitions would be hard to tell you , I don't know how to characterize it other than huge.

Why do you think of the numbers as moderate?

Do you think they were planning to loose? Or were they planning to repeat the success hey had against the Soviets?

Michael Tee

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Re: The Islamofascist War that isn't
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2007, 03:23:40 AM »
I saw nothing in the quote which could even be remotely interpreted as predicting the defeat of the U.S.A. in any capacity other than an invading force similar to the U.S.S.R.

I am convinced that all the armaments and weapons of al Qaeda in Afghanistan or indeed in the world are trivial compared to the total armaments and weapons of the U.S.A.  When all you can tell me about the quantity of al Qaeda weaponry is that it is "huge," that tells me next to nothing.  Would you not also describe the arsenal of the U.S.A. as "huge?"  Of the two "huges" which would you really think is the larger, and by what factor?  a factor of one or two, or a factor of 100 or 200?  or 1,000 to 2,000?

Given the relative resources of al Qaeda and the U.S.A. it would be foolish in the extreme to think the factor could be anything less than several hundred to one.

Plane

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Re: The Islamofascist War that isn't
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2007, 02:37:47 PM »
I saw nothing in the quote which could even be remotely interpreted as predicting the defeat of the U.S.A. in any capacity other than an invading force similar to the U.S.S.R.

I am convinced that all the armaments and weapons of al Qaeda in Afghanistan or indeed in the world are trivial compared to the total armaments and weapons of the U.S.A.  When all you can tell me about the quantity of al Qaeda weaponry is that it is "huge," that tells me next to nothing.  Would you not also describe the arsenal of the U.S.A. as "huge?"  Of the two "huges" which would you really think is the larger, and by what factor?  a factor of one or two, or a factor of 100 or 200?  or 1,000 to 2,000?

Given the relative resources of al Qaeda and the U.S.A. it would be foolish in the extreme to think the factor could be anything less than several hundred to one.


Far be it from me, to argue that the Al Queda is not foolish.

And you are right that no arsenal in the world is Huge in comparison wth ours.

But in comparison with the historical level of arms in Afganistan the Al Queda brought in a lot and hid it in caves and dugouts  all over the place.

As far as I can tell no one bothered to weigh it all up .

But that it was there, is evidence that they intended a protracted battle .

You have agreed with me now that the Al Queda intent was to have an invasion happen , do you think that they intended to loose too?

Plane

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Re: The Islamofascist War that isn't
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2007, 02:47:36 PM »
Bin Laden: "It Is Very Easy To Target [America's] Flimsy Base And … We Will Be Able Crush And Destroy Them." BIN LADEN: "In conclusion, America is definitely a great power, with an unbelievable military strength and a vibrant economy, but all of these have been built on a very weak and hollow foundation. Therefore, it is very easy to target that flimsy base and concentrate on their weak points and even if we are able to target one tenth of these weak points, we will be able [to] crush and destroy them and remove them from ruling and conquering the World." (Translation Of Purported Bin Laden Audio Message, Posted On Islamist Site, 2/14/03)


Osama Bin Laden: The 9/11 Attacks Were "An Unparalleled And Magnificent Feat Of Valor, Unmatched By Any In Humankind." BIN LADEN: "On the blessed Tuesday 11 September 2001 … they launched their attacks with their planes in an unparalleled and magnificent feat of valor, unmatched by any in humankind before them. … Yet with the destruction of the Twin Towers in New York, there occurred an even bigger destruction: that of the great American Dream and legend of Democracy." (Translation Of Purported Bin Laden Audio Message, Posted On Islamist Site, 2/14/03)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060905-7.html

Osama Bin Laden: The 9/11 Attacks Were "A Great Step Towards The Unity Of Muslims And Establishing The Righteous [Caliphate]." BIN LADEN: "These attacks took off the skin of the American wolf and they have been left standing in their filthy, naked reality. Thus the whole World awoke from its sleep and the Muslims realized the importance of the belief of loving and hating for the sake of Allah; the ties of brotherhood between the Muslims have become stronger, which is a very good sign and a great step towards the unity of Muslims and establishing the Righteous Islamic Khilafah insha-Allah." (Translation Of Purported Bin Laden Audio Message, Posted On Islamist Site, 2/14/03)

Ayman al-Zawahiri: "The Whole World Is An Open Field For Us." ZAWAHIRI: "The war with Israel is not about a treaty, a cease-fire agreement, Sykes-Picot borders, national zeal, or disputed borders. It is rather a jihad for the sake of God until the religion of God is established. It is jihad for the liberation of Palestine, all Palestine, as well as every land that was a home for Islam, from Andalusia to Iraq. The whole world is an open field for us." (Al-Zawahiri's 'Full' Message On War In Lebanon, Gaza Strip, Posted On Jihadist Website, 7/28/06)

Zawahiri: "The Reinstatement Of Islamic Rule … Is The Individual Duty Of Every Muslim … With Every Land Occupied By Infidels." ZAWAHIRI: "Supporting the jihad in Palestine with one's life, money, and opinion is the individual duty of every Muslim because Palestine was a land of Islam that was occupied by the infidels. This means that its liberation and the reinstatement of Islamic rule there is the individual duty of every Muslim as unanimously decided by the nation's scholars. And such is the case with every land occupied by infidels." (Al-Zawahiri's June Video Message Supporting Palestinians, Posted On Jihadist Site, 6/11/06)

Al-Qaeda Charter: "There Will Be Continuing Enmity Until Everyone Believes In Allah. We Will Not Meet [The Enemy] Halfway And There Will Be No Room For Dialogue With Them." (Al Qaeda Charter, Released By The White House Press Office, 9/5/06)

Al-Qaeda Training Manual: "The Confrontation That Islam Calls For … Knows The Dialogue Of Bullets, The Ideals Of Assassination, Bombing, And Destruction." "Islam does not coincide or make a truce with unbelief, but rather confronts it. The confrontation that Islam calls for with these godless and apostate regimes, does not know Socratic debates, Platonic ideals nor Aristotelian diplomacy. But it knows the dialogue of bullets, the ideals of assassination, bombing, and destruction, and the diplomacy of the cannon and machine-gun." (Al-Qaeda Training Manual, Available At: http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/terrorism/alqaida_manual/, Accessed 9/5/06)


Bin Laden: "The Most Important And Serious Issue Today For The Whole World Is This Third World War … Raging In [Iraq]." BIN LADEN: "I now address my speech to the whole of the Islamic nation: Listen and understand. The issue is big and the misfortune is momentous. The most important and serious issue today for the whole world is this Third World War, which the Crusader-Zionist coalition began against the Islamic nation. It is raging in the land of the two rivers. The world's millstone and pillar is in Baghdad, the capital of the caliphate." (Text Of Bin Laden's Audio Message To Muslims In Iraq, Posted On Jihadist Websites, 12/28/04)

Ayman al-Zawahiri: We Must "Establish An Islamic Authority … Over As Much Territory As You Can To Spread Its Power In Iraq … [And] Extend The Jihad Wave To The Secular Countries Neighboring Iraq." ZAWAHIRI: "So we must think for a long time about our next steps and how we want to attain it, and it is my humble opinion that the Jihad in Iraq requires several incremental goals: The first stage: Expel the Americans from Iraq. The second stage: Establish an Islamic authority or amirate, then develop it and support it until it achieves the level of a caliphate – over as much territory as you can to spread its power in Iraq … The third stage: Extend the jihad wave to the secular countries neighboring Iraq. The fourth stage: It may coincide with what came before: the clash with Israel, because Israel was established only to challenge any new Islamic entity." (Complete Text Of Al-Zawahiri Letter To Al-Zarqawi, 7/9/05, Available At: http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/20051011_release.htm, Accessed 9/5/06)

Bin Laden: "The War Is For You Or For Us To Win. If We Win It, It Means Your Defeat And Disgrace Forever." BIN LADEN: "Finally, I would like to tell you that the war is for you or for us to win. If we win it, it means your defeat and disgrace forever as the wind blows in this direction with God's help." (Bin Laden Threatens New Operations, Offers 'Long-Term Truce,' Posted On Al-Jazirah Net, 1/19/06)



Hezbollah Leader Nasrallah: "Death To America." NASRALLAH: "Let the entire world hear me. Our hostility to the Great Satan is absolute. … I conclude my speech with the slogan that will continue to reverberate on all occasions so that nobody will think that we have weakened. Regardless of how the world has changed after 11 September, Death to America will remain our reverberating and powerful slogan: Death to America." (Hezbollah Leader Nasrallah Supports Intifadah, Vows 'Death to America,' Aired On Beirut Al-Manar Television, 9/27/02)


Plane

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Re: The Islamofascist War that isn't
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2007, 02:49:42 PM »
      “It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims.”
 Ayman al-Zawahiri quote
 
http://thinkexist.com/quotes/ayman_al-zawahiri/


Well ,what has happened to all of the others?

Plane

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Re: The Islamofascist War that isn't
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2007, 03:03:34 PM »
You must ambush, mine, raid and (carry out) martyrdom campaigns so that you can wipe them out. As happened in Iraq and Afghanistan, when the world’s strongest power was defeated by the campaigns of the mujahideen, troops going to heaven, so its slaves shall be defeated on the Muslim lands of Somalia.

Ayman al-Zawahiri
Osama bin Laden's deputy in Al Qaeda

Speaking of Somalis
http://blog.joehuffman.org/2007/01/05/Quote+Of+The+DayAyman+AlZawahiri.aspx



Ayman Al-Zawahiri was born on 1 June 1951, in Cairo's Al-Ma'adi neighborhood. After graduating in 1968 from the Al Ma'adi secondary school he enrolled in the medical college of Cairo University and graduated, cum laude, in 1974, with an MD degree. He received a master's degree in surgery in 1978 and was married in 1979 to Izzat Ahmad Nuwair who had graduated from Cairo University with a degree in philosophy but who met the criteria of "a devout wife." Al-Zawahiri's wife bore him one daughter in Cairo and at least three other daughters and a son elsewhere, but no information on his children is available.[8] He has two brothers -- Hassan, who studied engineering and lives outside Egypt, and Muhammad, who followed Ayman's path to Jihad and is reported to have vanished in Afghanistan.[9]

http://memri.org/bin/opener.cgi?Page=archives&ID=IA12703

At a young age, Al-Zawahiri began reading Islamist literature by such authors as Sayyid Qutb, abu Alaa Al Mawdudi and Hassan Al Nadwya. Sayyid Qutb was one of the spiritual leaders of Islamic religious groups, especially the violent Jihad groups. While other Islamists at the time, particularly the Muslim Brotherhood, were looking to change their societies from within, Qutb was an influence on Zawahiri and others like him, "to launch something wider."[10] But like most Islamists before him and after, Qutb's world views, defined in his book "Ma'alim 'Ala Al-Tariq (Signposts on the Road), published in 1957, was predicated on a perfect dichotomy between believers and infidels, between Shari'a (Islamic law) and the law of the infidels, between tradition and decadence and between violent change and sham legitimacy. To quote Qutb himself, "In the world there is only one party, the party of Allah; all of the others are parties of Satan and rebellion. Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the cause of rebellion."






In Peshawar, Al-Zawahiri drew a strict distinction between his movement, the Islamic Jihad, and other competing Islamist movements; for example, Al-Jama'a Al-Islamiya and, to a lesser extent, the Muslim Brotherhood movement. In his book, Al-Hisad Al-Murr (The Bitter Harvest) Al-Zawahiri articulates his violence-driven and inherently anti-democratic instincts. He sees democracy as a new religion that must be destroyed by war. He accuses the Muslim Brotherhood of sacrificing Allah's ultimate authority by accepting the notion that the people are the ultimate source of authority. He condemns the Brotherhood for renouncing Jihad as a means to establish the Islamic State. He is equally virulent in his criticism of the Al-Jama'a Al-Islamiya for renouncing violence and for upholding the concept of constitutional authority. He condemns the Jama'a for taking advantage of the Muslim youth's enthusiasm which "it keeps in its refrigerators as soon as the young people have joined its movement or seek to direct them toward conferences and elections (rather than toward Jihad)."[22]

Al-Zawahiri takes his criticism a step further by characterizing the Muslim Brotherhood as "kuffar" (infidels.) Their adherence to democracy to achieve their political goals means giving the legislature rights that belong to Allah. Thus, he who supports democracy is, by definition, infidel. "For he who legislates anything for human beings," writes Al-Zawahiri, "would establish himself as their god." Since democracy is founded on the principle of political sovereignty, which becomes the ultimate arbiter of right and wrong, whoever accepts democracy is an infidel. He deplores the Muslim Brotherhood for mobilizing the masses of youth "to the ballot box" instead of mobilizing them to the ranks of Jihad. He criticizes the Brotherhood for extending bridges of understanding to the authorities that rule them. These bridges become part of a package or a quid pro quo: the rulers allow the Brotherhood a degree of freedom to spread their beliefs and the Brotherhood acknowledges the legitimacy of the regime. For him, those who have been endorsing this philosophy cannot be trusted even if they were to split from the Brotherhood. Their minds are forever polluted and set in stone.

Al-Zawahiri draws attention to the enormous financial wealth of the Muslim Brotherhood movement. This "material prosperity," he argues, is the result of the Brotherhood's leaders who escaped Nasser's oppression and took over regional and international banks and businesses. Joining the Brotherhood, says Al-Zawahiri, guarantees the young recruits the means of making a living and, hence, their activities are driven more by materialistic than spiritual considerations.[23]

In his memoirs, "Knights under the Banner of the Prophet" Al-Zawahiri responds to the criticism leveled against him for his strident condemnation of the Muslim Brotherhood. While he concedes that, as a human being, he may have erred in some details, he still considers the Muslim Brotherhood to be a movement that grows organizationally but commits suicide ideologically and politically. One of the most visible aspects in the political suicide is their support of the election of President Mubarak in 1987. He goes on to use a medical metaphor to makes his point:

It is not expected of the physician to tell the patient that your brain is healthy and your heart is healthy and your kidneys are healthy and your other body parts are in good shape except your stomach which has a cancer. It is incumbent on the physician to tell the patient that his life is in danger from a serious disease and it is incumbent on the patient to start treatment quickly or he will face ruin.[24]



In Afghanistan, Al-Zawahiri would find the perfect place for his Jihad movement to gain "operational, military, political and organizational" experience. In Afghanistan, Muslim youth fought a war "to liberate a Muslim country under purely Muslim banners." For him, this was a significant matter because everywhere else wars were fought under "nationalist banners mingled with Islam and sometimes even with leftist and communist banners." The case of Palestine, he says, is a good example where banners got mingled and where the nationalists allied themselves with the devil and lost Palestine. For Al-Zawahiri, when wars are fought not under pure Islamic banners but rather under mixed banners, the boundaries between the loyalists and the enemies get confused in the eyes of the Muslim youth. Is it, he asks, the external enemy who occupies the land of Islam or the internal enemy who prevents the rule of Islam and "spreads debauchery and decay under the banner of progress, freedom, nationalism and liberation?" In Afghanistan, the picture was very clear: "a Muslim people fighting [a Jihad] under the banner of Islam against an infidel external enemy supported by corrupt internal system." He went on to write:

The most important thing about the battle in Afghanistan was that it destroyed the illusion of the superpower in the minds of the young Muslim Mujahedeen. The Soviet Union, the power with the largest land forces in the world, was destroyed and scattered, running away from Afghanistan before the eyes of the Muslim youth. This Jihad was a training course for Muslim youth for the future battle anticipated with the superpower which is the sole leader in the world now, America

« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 03:14:11 PM by Plane »

sirs

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Re: The Islamofascist War that isn't
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2007, 03:15:43 PM »
But Plane, you're not getting it.  Just because they say it's their goal, just because they'll do anything, including blow themselves up to kill as many women and children as possible, just because this is a religious vision that decrees even in death they are doing Allah's will, doesn't mean they can defeat the U.S.A.  And since they can't, then they never really intended to destroy us and our way of living, and doesn't require us to do anything to prevent such, since ......they can't.  Right?         ;)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: The Islamofascist War that isn't
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2007, 04:29:08 PM »
In reasearching the answers that MT wanted, I have discovered that Ayman al-Zawahiri quotes are more to the point than Osama Bin Laden quotes.



http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1847288804?redirect=true&tag2=lauramansfiel-20


I might get this book.

Plane

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Re: The Islamofascist War that isn't
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2007, 04:40:22 PM »
But Plane, you're not getting it.  Just because they say it's their goal, just because they'll do anything, including blow themselves up to kill as many women and children as possible, just because this is a religious vision that decrees even in death they are doing Allah's will, doesn't mean they can defeat the U.S.A.  And since they can't, then they never really intended to destroy us and our way of living, and doesn't require us to do anything to prevent such, since ......they can't.  Right?         ;)



Osama has offered truce at least three times , but it was conditional .

Are these conditons the things he really wants?

Or perhaps he just isn't serious.

http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=18136