Author Topic: Songbird - a devastating account of McCain's real-life incarceration . . .  (Read 8686 times)

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Michael Tee

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and why he WILL NOT RELEASE the military records pertaining to his stay in the Hanoi Hilton.

http://www.counterpunch.com/valentine10312008.html

McCain lied about being tortured, and gave away military secrets simply in exchange for special treatment for his wounds.

This writer argues that as an officer of the U.S. Navy who gave aid and comfort to the enemy, McCain is Constitutionally barred from seeking office.

BT

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BSB

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From the link provided in the opening post.

"It is alleged that McCain gave the numbers of aircraft in his flight formation, information about location of rescue ships, and the order of which his attack was supposed to take place. According to retired Army Colonel Earl Hopper, McCain divulged classified information North Vietnam used to hone their air defense system, including “the package routes, which were routes used to bomb North Vietnam. He gave in detail the altitude they were flying, the direction, if they made a turn … he gave them what primary targets the United States was interested in.” As result, Hopper claims, the U.S. lost 60 per cent more aircraft, and in 1968 “called off the bombing of North Vietnam, because of the information McCain had given to them.”"

=========================

Some facts concerning the air war over North Vietnam. Of particular interest:

"North Vietnamese to increase their missile firings from 30 per month in the first 11 months of operation to 270 per month between July 1966 and October 1967. >>>>The latter month, with between 590 and 740 SAMs fired, was the peak month of firing until the Linebacker II operations of 1972.<<<< From October 1967 to the bombing halt on 1 April 1968, SAM firings averaged 220 per month. During this period, the American airmen observed 5,366-6,037 SAMs, which downed 115-128 aircraft. 

Despite the increase in SAM firings, their direct effectiveness declined. In 1965 it took almost 18 SAMs to down each American aircraft, a figure that rose to 35 in 1966, >>>>to 57 in 1967, and to 107 in 1968. <<<<"

BSB


"The Vietnam air war changed dramatically on 24 July 1965 when a Soviet SA-2 [(Russian ?-75, NATO reporting name SA-2 Guideline] missile downed an Air Force F-4 and damaged three others. Proving this shoot down was no fluke, two days later an SA-2 destroyed an American drone. .................................................................................................
........................................................................................Despite knowledge of the missile since 1957, and its potential (similar to the Nike Ajax), the United States made only mixed progress with countermeasures. Tight budgets in the late 1950s hampered these efforts. Airmen assigned high priority to countermeasures against the SA-2 in budgets for fiscal years 1964 and 1965, but had nothing effective in hand when the need arose. As a result, in 1964, some airmen believed that aircraft could not operate in SAM protected areas. ...
The potential SAM threat grew as the North Vietnamese incorporated more missiles into their inventory. North Vietnamese SAM battalions increased from one in 1965 to 25 the next year, to 30 in 1967, and to 35-40 in 1968. This growth in units permitted the North Vietnamese to increase their missile firings from 30 per month in the first 11 months of operation to 270 per month between July 1966 and October 1967. The latter month, with between 590 and 740 SAMs fired, was the peak month of firing until the Linebacker II operations of 1972. From October 1967 to the bombing halt on 1 April 1968, SAM firings averaged 220 per month. During this period, the American airmen observed 5,366-6,037 SAMs, which downed 115-128 aircraft. 

Despite the increase in SAM firings, their direct effectiveness declined. In 1965 it took almost 18 SAMs to down each American aircraft, a figure that rose to 35 in 1966, to 57 in 1967, and to 107 in 1968. A number of factors contributed to this decline.

The airmen quickly learned that the SA-2 could be outmaneuvered. The Soviets designed the SA-2 to destroy highflying, non-maneuvering, strategic bombers; but until 1972 it engaged primarily low-flying, very maneuverable, tactical fighters. ............................................................................"

<http://warandgame.blogspot.com/2008/04/vietnam-sam.html>

Lanya

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Hugs BSB. I don't have a comment about the post,  but I wanted to welcome you. ((BSB))
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

Michael Tee

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Even if Hopper is an unreliable guy who tried to weave a story about McCain giving away key tactical information to his captors into the actual history of the air war, blaming McCain for phenomena over which he had no real influence at all, one has to wonder about the enemy propaganda broadcasts which even McCain admits to making.  Where are the tapes of all the broadcasts?  They have to exist somewhere.

BT

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Even if Hopper is an unreliable guy who tried to weave a story about McCain giving away key tactical information to his captors into the actual history of the air war, blaming McCain for phenomena over which he had no real influence at all, one has to wonder about the enemy propaganda broadcasts which even McCain admits to making.  Where are the tapes of all the broadcasts?  They have to exist somewhere.

One would hope Counterpunch would want to enhance their credibility whilst in the midst of a fundraising campaign. Then again maybe they know their customers and feed them the schlock they want.

Cynthia

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One would hope Counterpunch would want to enhance their credibility whilst in the midst of a fundraising campaign. Then again maybe they know their customers and feed them the schlock they want.



and there seems to be plenty of "schlock" to go around this election.

McCain was a soldier. Period. He served, he was shot down, and to anyone who considers ALL soldiers to be heros...he was a hero.

I consider all fighting military personel a hero in my eye.

This nation not unlike any other nation has a dedication to keeping things status quo and on the mark.

If a human being fights in a bloody battle, or sits on the sidelines for the sake of a "nation".....by damn that person deserves to be honored in my book...

McCain is running for president of the United States of America.

Obama is doing the same.....

I can't wait for all this Sh*t to be over so we can carry on and get back to the business complaining about something else.

Sarcasm alert. ::)


Plane

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"McCain’s political fortunes balance precariously on the myth that he never collaborated, even under torture."


This is not what he says in his Memiors.

He recounts his being beaten to the point of wishing for death as a release and then beaten further , of his failed suicide attempt and his reading from a script for a recording.

Before writing this essay  , one would think the author would have made himself familiar with what McCain himself admits to.

For this same very low level of proof  why should you not beleive it when I tell you that O'Bama is a leader in an Irish Mafia?

Credibility count in negative numbers.

Plane

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It has never been about race and gender so much as it is about class and ideology. Race and gender do matter – race, perhaps, more than gender, in so far as you’ll never see any mainstream magazine savage Sarah Palin for toting an AK-47, while The New Yorker used a mere caricature of Michele Obama armed with one to fan America’s latent racist flames.


The New Yorker Magazine desires to fan the flames of Americas latent racism?

This Author has credibility readings in high negative numbers.


Quote
Another erstwhile military officer said I was unfair toward McCain because (get this) all U.S. Navy pilot prisoners (all officers) of the North Vietnamese collaborated and signed confessions.

What does this tell us about officers? It tells us that they take their oaths but not very seriously, and that they feel entitled to special treatment, which they receive from their smarter brothers in the mainstream media.


It can't mean that when almost every Prisoner of North Vietnam says that they were tortured , that they might have all been tortured?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2008, 03:37:41 AM by Plane »

Plane

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Ted Guy and Gordon “Swede” Larson were POWs with McCain. Indeed, they were McCain’s senior officers at the time he says he was tortured in solitary confinement. Guy and Larson, who have no axe to grind and have a better idea of what happened than almost anyone else, claimed that while they could not guarantee that McCain was not physically harmed, they doubted it. “Between the two of us, it’s our belief, and to the best of our knowledge, that no prisoner was beaten or harmed physically in [the camp where McCain was],” Larson said. “No one else in that camp was. It was the camp that people were released from.”




DOUGLAS VALENTINE you need to work on your skill at lying try not to use as unimpeachable witnesses , persons who are on record with long and detailed statements that shoot your thesis full of holes.


Gordon “Swede” Larson


Quote


. http://www.soft-vision.com/hanoi/larson/bio_1.htm ........................................

After another eternity, I felt I could not take any more and agreed to tell him the names of the other three in my flight. I knew they had my wingman, and they couldn’t touch the others. When I was untied, Rope deftly popped my arm back into the socket and acted like nothing had happened. I later learned that this had happened to others. Unfortunately the questions didn’t stop there and back in the ropes I went. By this time my arms were hanging uselessly and I had no feeling in them.

...............................................

I’m convinced that if I had not been in a cell with Robby Risner, I would never have had that tooth looked after - nor would I have been taken to a hospital to be x-rayed. He and Admiral McCain's son, John, were their prized possessions and they were genuinely concerned that if and when we were released, people would listen to him and he could relate my treatment&nbsp; as a demonstration of their new found "lenient and humane" treatment of prisoners.

 
Gordon A. Larson

San Antonio, Texas

October 1996

« Last Edit: November 01, 2008, 05:29:19 AM by Plane »

Plane

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http://www.soft-vision.com/we-remember/index3.html


It might also help to quote people who are liveing while you are supposed to be asking them the questions.




OBITUARY of Col. TED W. GUY

Theodore Wilson Guy, 70, of Sunrise Beach, Missouri, died April 23, 1999, at St. Marys Health Center. 

Plane

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I finally found it.

The article in which  Guy and Larson discount McCain's torture.


http://www.powmccain.org/?page_id=41


Took a while to find , painfull to read too.


The thing in question seems to be that Ted Guy and Gordon  Larson were pretty sure that up to 600 Americans were still alive in Vietnam and McCain didn't think so. So they compared cases of much worse torture includeing their own, with McCain's mere beatings. Their credibility for carrying more whip scars is thereby greater than McCains whose scars were less.

These guys were pretty mad because they were convinced that Nixon and Kissenger promised the Vietnameese 4 bilion Dollars or so and did not deliver it , resulting in the probable exicution of the Americans held hostage to the payment.   


I hate to see this strife amoung people I respect so much , but if you must beleive their version , do you have to beleive that the Vietnameese exicuted these hostages too? Do you have to beleive in their recounting of what a real beating was like? Actually I do , but I don't think there was any saving the prisoners we were not sure existed.

In his book McCain flatly states that he knew of worse treatment than what he received , he credits the station of his father much as does Gordon "Swede" Larson , Larson even thought that haveing simply been seen by a prisoner with powerfull family connections in  the States (Robby Risner)  was good for his treatment .

McCain without his father Admiral McCain might very well have died as so many others did under the care of the Vietnameese military prisons.

Is this actually a fault of McCain himself?

Michael Tee

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<<McCain was a soldier. Period. He served, he was shot down, and to anyone who considers ALL soldiers to be heros...he was a hero.

<<I consider all fighting military personel a hero in my eye.>>

That is appalling bullshit.  It depends entirely on what they were fighting for.  Otherwise, Hitler's S.S. would have been a bunch of heroes as would the Japs who took part in the Rape of Nanking.

Michael Tee

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The article in which  Guy and Larson discount McCain's torture.


http://www.powmccain.org/?page_id=41


Took a while to find , painfull to read too.

===========================================================

Thanks for finding the article, plane.

It really seems like McCain is speaking out of both sides of his mouth.  Sure, he admits that others were tortured worse than he.  But once that token admission is made, everything we hear about McCain is about how he was tortured for his country, suffered for his country, etc.  I only read for the first time in this thread that McCain had acknowledged others had it worse.  If I had read it before somewhere, it had been effectively wiped clean from my memory, because clearly the thrust of 99.9% of McCain's public "story" is about him being tortured in prison.

"painful to read?" - - I've read a lot of reports of torture.  These were far from the worst.  It probably would have disturbed me had I not read so many others.

Since the end of the Second World War, the campaign to abolish torture, a very difficult undertaking, had been making slow progress, which was turned around 180 degrees and IMHO set back 100 years by the Bush administration.  McCain at one time was prominent in the fight against torture, but in the end he supported legislation which facilitated torture, one of the reasons I root for Obama and hope that an Obama administration will begin to reverse at least some of the evil done by Bush and Cheney.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2008, 07:52:57 AM by Michael Tee »

Cynthia

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<<McCain was a soldier. Period. He served, he was shot down, and to anyone who considers ALL soldiers to be heros...he was a hero.

<<I consider all fighting military personel a hero in my eye.>>

That is appalling bullshit.  It depends entirely on what they were fighting for.  Otherwise, Hitler's S.S. would have been a bunch of heroes as would the Japs who took part in the Rape of Nanking.


Ahh, But, Michael.....those men WERE heros in Hitler's army. Hitler was not the hero, this we all know.... but those young men who went to war were INDEED heros in the eyes of their loved ones. Any person who fights a war under the proper conventions, is a hero.

Murdering and flying planes into buildings does not count as fighting for a nation under such circumstances. ..THUS they are murdering others based on their own selfish "cause".



We disagree on this issue, Mtee.