Author Topic: Parallel Universes  (Read 11924 times)

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Henny

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Re: Parallel Universes
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2008, 02:47:03 AM »
In our universe, we seem have three spatial dimensions (width, height, depth) and one tewmporal one (time).

Our universe contains (at a minimum) 13 dimensions. Unless quantum mechanics is wrong (which is the whole basis of modern physics).

Classic String / M Theory predicts 11. Two-time version predicts 13.

Ami, I am not trying to challenge anything you're writing as our resident super-smart guy. I was just geeked that I knew that!  ;D

Amianthus

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Re: Parallel Universes
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2008, 08:19:11 AM »
Ami, I am not trying to challenge anything you're writing as our resident super-smart guy. I was just geeked that I knew that!  ;D

Yeah, I know. I corrected myself later.

I blame having watched Quantum of Solace yesterday before that post. Addled my brain. ;-)
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Parallel Universes
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2008, 08:36:49 PM »
Why are four dimensions insufficient?
Are calculations more accurate if we include ten or eleven dimensions?

Will our lives be ruined in some way if we assume that there are only four?
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: Parallel Universes
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2008, 09:39:40 PM »
Why are four dimensions insufficient?

We're talking reality, not sufficiency.

You may find 4 dimensions sufficient, however, the universe exists with at least 10.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: Parallel Universes
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2008, 09:56:47 PM »
Why are four dimensions insufficient?

We're talking reality, not sufficiency.

*snicker*....and you're talking to Xo, not Miss Henny    ;)

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Parallel Universes
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2008, 10:45:24 PM »
Why are four dimensions insufficient?
Are calculations more accurate if we include ten or eleven dimensions?

Will our lives be ruined in some way if we assume that there are only four?

Quantum mechanics is peculiar , you could totally ignore it and plan a rockets path to Pluto , but a Scanning tunnelling microscope  uses it to image individual atoms.

Very tiny particles and energies seem to have minimum sizes to exist , thus the term "Quantum" because tiny masses and energies tend to be found in particular quantities and multiples of these.

When a single quanta of mass or energy is being studied ,Heisenberg tells us , it is impossible to get a measurement of its position and its velocity , you have to settle for either learning its position or its velocity. This is because it requires a quantum of energy to report the fact and the impingement of the reporting quantum changes the state of the single quantum under study reporting one fact and destroying the other. You don't notice this effect on a baseball , a baseball can be impinged by billions of photons with no perceptible effect on its position and velocity , so many facts can be learned by watching a baseball as it passes , but observing an electron as it passes means the electron is necessarily interacting with energies or masses that have profound effect on its direction and speed.  It is as if the only way to observe a baseball was to bounce a tennis ball off of it.

The position of an electron in quantum mechanics is described in terms of odds. There is an envelope of possible positions and a range of possible speeds , energy states , spins etc. the electron is considered to be 50% in the position and state it is 50% likely to be AND (not or) 25% in the position and state it is 25% likely to be AND (not or) 15% in the position and state it is 15% likely to be. An electron viewed in this way seems to be a cloud with thin and thick bands. Not so much a particle at all, if a measurement is taken of the electrons position it will seem like a particle that left a single track , but if a measurement is taken of the electrons energy state, its wavelike effects will predominate. If allowed to pass through two slots an electron can pass through both of them , or a single one of them depending on how you measure the electron as it passes .

Tunnelling is an effect of Quantum Mechanics that is getting a lot of use , it is very likely that you own a device that incorporates a tunnelling diode , these are pretty common. Tunnelling is finding an electron in a place that it has no business being , it takes a certain amount of energy for an electron to pass the barrier of a Diode , but at lower energies than this a certain number of electrons show up on the other side of the barrier as if they had dug a tunnel through the barrier. This is amazing ,but dependable ,and produces a device of very great sensitivity . Without the quantum mechanical understanding of this effect it might be hard to build your cell phone . But how exactly is there a 2% chance that an electron will appear on the wrong side of a barrier that should be electron proof? Why does it seem as if each electron is 2% there? I am reaching the limits of my ability to elucidate because my understanding peters out here.

The existence of extra dimensions helps explain the porosity of tiny barriers and the behavior of tiny particles , but this is never observed on a large scale , it is as if any dimension above the main three spacial ones have no stability over a long range and fold themselves into small packages unnoticeable at the scale we live in , and temporal dimentions about the same.

I read about this stuff now and then it is fun and good exercise , whatever I manage to get my mind around successfully seems like an accomplishment, but the really advanced stuff is always a good bit in frount of what I grock.

Plane

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Re: Parallel Universes
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2008, 11:46:09 PM »
View Full Version : Don't talk about Heisenberg if you're not certain...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

bartl11-08-2006, 07:52 PM
Small but important correction. It was well-known that observing a phenomenon changed it (and it's not magical; in order to observe something, you need to add or remove energy from it. If that amount of energy is significant compared to what is being observed, it will change the phenomenon significantly). What Heisenberg did was figured out a way to measure, with great accuracy, the margin of error (essentially, the margin of error). When measuring a very large number of particles simultaneously, it gives very accurate results, which is why it's so important. In other words, he didn't just say that the more accurately you measure the position of a particle, the less accurately you can measure its momentum; he figured out how to calculate HOW MUCH less accurately.
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/archive/index.php/t-151372.html

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/2007/06/22/confound-you-heisenberg/

http://dresdencodak.com/cartoons/dc_archive.htm

« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 11:54:07 PM by Plane »

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Parallel Universes
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2008, 01:00:11 AM »
I suggest that four dimensions are entirely accurate for nearly everyone, but ten or eleven or whatever should be considered when one is doing particle physics.

Einstein's Theory of Relativity does not apply for any conveyance currently available to the population. We might age .00002% less while in flight in a commercial jetliner, but this is so negligible as to be ignored with impunity.

 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: Parallel Universes
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2008, 01:28:24 PM »
Einstein's Theory of Relativity does not apply for any conveyance currently available to the population.

You know, I don't pick on many of your incorrect details, but your constant need to pick on spelling makes me reconsider.

Many people use GPS systems daily. These need to have a relativistic time shift applied because of the difference in speed between the satellite constellation and your ground speed. So, yes, many people use it (even if they don't realize it) on a daily basis.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Parallel Universes
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2008, 02:04:09 PM »
Many people use GPS systems daily. These need to have a relativistic time shift applied because of the difference in speed between the satellite constellation and your ground speed. So, yes, many people use it (even if they don't realize it) on a daily basis.

=================================================
I agree that people use GPS systems a lot. I have one in my car. But if the GPS compensates for speed, it isn't by much, and people don't need to use more than four dimensions in any conscious way. I agree that if one is planning a space voyage, then Einstein's discoveries need to be taken in account.

I am not sure what you mean by "satellite constellation". Does a GPS take any reference from the stars? I had the impression that it simply uses a triangulation between the satellite, the GPS location and the destination. Do GPS units make use of the position of any stars? Polaris, perhaps?

Does one need to know about more than four dimensions for such calculations?

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: Parallel Universes
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2008, 04:57:21 PM »
I am not sure what you mean by "satellite constellation". Does a GPS take any reference from the stars? I had the impression that it simply uses a triangulation between the satellite, the GPS location and the destination. Do GPS units make use of the position of any stars? Polaris, perhaps?

There is a large group of satellites that are used for GPS - the group as a whole is known as a "satellite constellation". And the calculations require signals from at least 4 satellites (though more signals give a more accurate location). The speed difference between you on the ground and the various orbits of the satellites require relativistic compensation - the clocks on the satellites are marking time at a different rate than that in your GPS unit. Without the compensation, the position calculations (based on using a very accurate time measurement) would drift by a large margin.

Here's a pretty cool animation of the GPS satellite constellation:

Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Parallel Universes
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2008, 08:17:20 PM »
Thanks for the information. I do find it absolutely amazing that a gizmo I bought for $99.95 and plug into my cigarette lighter can announce "you have arrived!" within 20 feet of an address in Coral Gables when we go to yard sales. Prior to that, the Gables was a real headache, because there is no system at all to the street names. In the rest of the county, the streets and avenues are mostly numbered.

Coral Gables is ideal to shop in Yard sales, because lots of rich people live there in rather small houses. Rich people have yard sales because they need room, and sell for a lot less than poorer people, who sell stuff because they need money. Plus people with college degrees have a lot neater stuff and better taste. I find I have little need for Chinese porcelain cupids, Disney souvenirs, Jehovah's Witless books, romances, Van Damme films and get rich selling real estate books.

My cheapo Magellan GPS is just great.

I am not so sure about the factory-installed gizmos.  We went to the Auto Show and this Latin woman was trying to show us how utterly clever the OnStar was. It was sad, because she only managed to get a call in to the base to unlock the doors. The stereo system is integrated, and all input is by voice only, and the schlubs had not had her voice and accent programmed into the system, so it kept asking her to repeat. And she did, again and again and again. It was the first day of the show.

Car salesmen are generally more clueless than one might expect. I imagine they are best at figuring out commissions. I have only bought one car from a dealer in my life. I bought a Renault R10 from a Chevy dealer in Fairmont, WV.The salesman was unaware the motor was in the rear. It was the only thing foreign on the lot. I'm pretty sure that they didn't have much in it, because they sold it about $300 below the Blue Book.

As I see it, I carry a spare key in my billfold, I have a suction-cup GPS and I have everything OnStar could give me, and should it stop working, I can fix it for $99.95 or less. I imagine that any repairs to OnStar would leave me with no car for a week and after the warranty ran out, I'd be paying $500 or more to fix it.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: Parallel Universes
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2008, 08:22:41 PM »
As I see it, I carry a spare key in my billfold, I have a suction-cup GPS and I have everything OnStar could give me, and should it stop working, I can fix it for $99.95 or less. I imagine that any repairs to OnStar would leave me with no car for a week and after the warranty ran out, I'd be paying $500 or more to fix it.

OnStar also provides a hands-free cellular phone and a reservation service. But it costs too much, IMO, for what they provide.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Parallel Universes
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2008, 08:32:40 PM »
That was the other objection I had: the fool thing requires a rather hefty monthly payment in addition to another for the satellite radio.  You would be making payments every month forever. As for reservations, most places who accept them are the most expensive of all.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: Parallel Universes
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2008, 11:18:34 PM »
History Channel's "The Universe" series did a pretty good show about parallel universes:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAhCUtkFA2A[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruf9TEPzVNE[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh-hCCKTamw[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTTF-eODNEI[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrexjpsNhC0[/youtube]
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)