Author Topic: Unpopular decisions are the price of constitutional rights.  (Read 27732 times)

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Plane

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Re: Unpopular decisions are the price of constitutional rights.
« Reply #90 on: November 20, 2008, 05:31:38 AM »
So they cannot marry even if they remain celibate?

Is an unconsumated marrage ,a marrage?


After all by BillClintonstandards there wouldn't be any real sex.

Plane

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Re: Unpopular decisions are the price of constitutional rights.
« Reply #91 on: November 20, 2008, 05:42:29 AM »

So you think that homosexuals are ridiculous for insisting that their unions be called a marriage?


Pretty sure that is not what I said. If we are talking about unions that are legally marriages in everything but name, then yeah I think the name is a battle that serves little purpose. But I understand it more from the homosexuals who think the name conveys legitimacy than from those who oppose it because the definition of the word as they understand it is something with which they cannot bear to part.

All practical purposes can be served by secular contracts and powers of attorney that can be had already.

Insisting on public approval is more the point.

A marrage cerimony calls on the congregation to support the union and "what God has Joind together let no man take asunder".

fatman

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Re: Unpopular decisions are the price of constitutional rights.
« Reply #92 on: November 20, 2008, 06:33:49 AM »
A federal bailout for Prop. 8
A Colorado battle may offer a means of challenging California's same-sex marriage ban.
By Brian E. Gray
November 17, 2008
ยป Discuss Article    (172 Comments)


In 1992, by a 53%-47% split, Coloradans passed an amendment to their state Constitution that repealed laws in Aspen, Boulder and Denver that prohibited discrimination against gays. The amendment barred the state and its political subdivisions from adopting or enforcing any law "whereby homosexual, lesbian or bisexual orientation, conduct, practices or relationships" are the basis of a claim of discrimination. Does this sound familiar?

As the proponents of same-sex marriage rights determine the proper response to Proposition 8, it is illuminating to compare Colorado's rejection of "gay rights" with California's repudiation of "gay marriage."

The day after the Nov. 4 election, a coalition of civil rights groups asked the California Supreme Court to declare that Proposition 8 was unlawfully enacted. The essence of their claim is that a constitutional change that rescinds individual rights must first be passed by a supermajority in the Legislature before being submitted to voters. This process-based claim may well have merit, but there exists a more direct means of challenging Proposition 8 based on the U.S. Constitution.

Following the enactment of Colorado's Amendment 2, its opponents filed suit claiming that it unlawfully singled out gays and lesbians as a class to deny them rights that other citizens not only possess but take for granted. These rights include access to housing, government services, public accommodations and public and private employment opportunities without regard to an individual's race, sex, religion, age, ancestry, political belief or other characteristic that defines each of us as a unique human being. Amendment 2, the opponents argued, therefore denied gays and lesbians the equal protection of the laws, which is a guarantee of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

To the surprise of many, the U.S. Supreme Court agreed.


Writing for a 6-3 majority in Romer vs. Evans (1996), Justice Anthony M. Kennedy explained that it "is not within our constitutional tradition to enact laws of this sort. Central both to the idea of the rule of law and to our own Constitution's guarantee of equal protection is the principle that government and each of its parts remain open on impartial terms to all who seek its assistance." Laws such as Amendment 2 "raise the inevitable inference that the disadvantage imposed is born of animosity toward the class of persons affected," Kennedy wrote, adding a reference to another 1973 ruling. "If the constitutional conception of 'equal protection of the laws' means anything, it must at the very least mean that a bare ... desire to harm a politically unpopular group cannot constitute a legitimate governmental interest."

Proposition 8 suffers these same constitutional flaws. It provides that gays and lesbians -- alone among consenting adult couples -- shall not have the opportunity to enjoy the rights, privileges and social approbation conferred by the status of lawful marriage. And despite their insistence that the initiative was "not an attack on the gay lifestyle," its proponents were remarkably candid about their disapproval of homosexual families. The amendment, they argued in voter guides, "protects our children from being taught in public schools that 'same-sex marriage' is the same as traditional marriage." It protects marriage "as an essential institution of society" because "the best situation for a child is to be raised by a married mother and father."

But as California's chief justice, Ronald M. George, explained in his opinion declaring the state's previous statutory ban on same-sex marriage unconstitutional, limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples does nothing to protect the interests of children. "An individual's capacity to establish a loving and long-term committed relationship with another person and responsibly to care for and raise children does not depend on the individual's sexual orientation." Moreover, "the exclusion of same-sex couples from the designation of marriage clearly is not necessary in order to afford full protection to all of the rights and benefits that currently are enjoyed by married opposite-sex couples."

In other words, the reasons for denying gay and lesbian couples the right to marry that served as the "factual" basis for Proposition 8 are but pretexts for discrimination.

This is not to say, of course, that the federal courts would hold Proposition 8 to be in violation of the U.S. Constitution. There are differences between the marriage ban and Colorado's prohibition of all sexual orientation anti-discrimination laws. As Kennedy noted in Romer vs. Evans, Amendment 2 "has the peculiar property of imposing a broad and undifferentiated disability on a single named group." Proposition 8, in contrast, was narrowly focused on one civil right -- marriage. Moreover, any court -- especially our current U.S. Supreme Court -- may be reluctant to rule that Californians do not have the power to amend their own state Constitution as a remedy to a judicial interpretation of that very same document.

Yet the Colorado and California initiatives are alike in their essence. Each is, to quote Kennedy, "a classification of persons undertaken for its own sake, something the equal protection clause does not permit." Proposition 8 was explicitly designed to relegate hundreds of thousands of Californians to an inferior legal and social status.

Many gay-rights activists are wary of the current Supreme Court, but five of the justices who formed the majority in Romer vs. Evans remain on the bench. As with so many cases, a ruling likely would hinge on the views of Kennedy, and there is no reason to believe that his judicial opinion has changed in any fundamental way. Besides, any constitutional challenge will take years to make its way to the U.S. Supreme Court. By that time, the broader political change that swept over the nation Nov. 4 may have reached the Supreme Court as well.

But even if it hasn't, this 12-year-old precedent from a conservative high court could be the key to reaffirming that fundamental civil rights must be available to all citizens, regardless of race, sexual orientation or other intrinsic human qualities.

LA Times Article

hnumpah

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Re: Unpopular decisions are the price of constitutional rights.
« Reply #93 on: November 20, 2008, 09:06:03 AM »
Quote
Marriage was established as the norm at creation.

Who married Adam and Eve? And why isn't marriage even mentioned in the Bible until the time of Jacob?

Quote
Proposition 8 is an amendment to the constitution.  No court has the right to overrule that.

The California supreme court does, if it finds that the amendment violates other provisions of the constitution.

Quote
Can you point me to the verse that specifically (or even generally) refers to marriage as anything other than between a man & a woman??

Can you point me to the verse that specifically (or even generally) refers to your right to own guns? To defend yourself? I can point you to one that specifically says you should not resist an enemy that attacks you:

Matthew 5:39 - But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.   

Quote
Especially ironic since I never claimed that the Bible was the end all to this position, regarding marriage

It keeps coming back to that, though, doesn't it? I threw the question out to everyone - you chose to respond. No one has been able to come up with chapter and verse supporting that position yet.

Quote
Gen 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh."

One MIGHT argue that gays can be "husband and wife" but Paul was pretty clear on the definition.  He himself apparently remained unmarried, and thought celibacy was a keen idea (to the everlasting discomfort of an awful lot of literal-minded Catholic priests).  But he recognized that celibacy wasn't particularly practical, and might even lead to sexual sins.  So he said:

1 Cor 7:2  "Nevertheless to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

It would be an awfully long stretch to suggest that this definition allowed for the possibility of same-sex marriage. 


And no mention of the term marriage being reserved for the union of a man and woman anywhere in there - which was my original question.

Quote
Is an unconsumated marrage ,a marrage?

Why wouldn't it be?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 10:24:30 AM by hnumpah »
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hnumpah

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Re: Unpopular decisions are the price of constitutional rights.
« Reply #94 on: November 20, 2008, 09:10:28 AM »
Quote
All practical purposes can be served by secular contracts and powers of attorney that can be had already.

Mentioned that already, Plane, ol' buddy. Why should same sex couples have to go through the extra steps, extra expense, the extra time and effort required to get powers of attorney and make out wills that are not required of other couples, to allow them to have the same rights and privileges of inheritance, being able to make medical decisions for an incapacitated partner, or even being able to visit a partner in the hospital?
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Unpopular decisions are the price of constitutional rights.
« Reply #95 on: November 20, 2008, 12:20:23 PM »
Is an unconsumated marrage ,a marrage?

Why wouldn't it be?

========================================
The alternative would be to declare that an unconsummated marriage was officially invalid. This means that there would have to be some sort of Writ of Consummation, which would certainly require witnesses, or any marriage could be contested as unconsummated, including those having children.

I tend to think that there would be few Americans who would want to go through this, or have their children or parents go through it. 

The affair between Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton, by the way, was, according to the testimony of both of them, unconsummated. Since they did nothing that could have produced offspring, they did not officially have sex.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 12:22:04 PM by Xavier_Onassis »
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Plane

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Re: Unpopular decisions are the price of constitutional rights.
« Reply #96 on: November 20, 2008, 07:36:51 PM »
Is an unconsumated marrage ,a marrage?

Why wouldn't it be?

========================================
The alternative would be to declare that an unconsummated marriage was officially invalid. This means that there would have to be some sort of Writ of Consummation, which would certainly require witnesses, or any marriage could be contested as unconsummated, including those having children.

I tend to think that there would be few Americans who would want to go through this, or have their children or parents go through it. 

The affair between Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton, by the way, was, according to the testimony of both of them, unconsummated. Since they did nothing that could have produced offspring, they did not officially have sex.


Being unconsumated is grounds for annulment . Even for a seriously observant Catholic.

In the olden times being childless was tragic , olden times being about thirty years ago.

Someone who wasn't even trying was denying the more willing partner something that there was a right to , understood in the marrage contract , and whether it was the man or woman complaining .

So you are stateing that Homosexuals just can't have sex at all? That seems more extreme than my position.

Plane

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Re: Unpopular decisions are the price of constitutional rights.
« Reply #97 on: November 20, 2008, 07:46:28 PM »
Quote
Marriage was established as the norm at creation.

Who married Adam and Eve? And why isn't marriage even mentioned in the Bible until the time of Jacob?

God did , his bringing them together is the first marrage.

I think Job is before Jacob in time , even if not in order by books , and who again were Jacobs parents?Grandparents?
Quote

Quote
Proposition 8 is an amendment to the constitution.  No court has the right to overrule that.

The California supreme court does, if it finds that the amendment violates other provisions of the constitution.
This makes them kings then doesn't it?
Quote

Quote
Can you point me to the verse that specifically (or even generally) refers to marriage as anything other than between a man & a woman??

Can you point me to the verse that specifically (or even generally) refers to your right to own guns? To defend yourself? I can point you to one that specifically says you should not resist an enemy that attacks you:

Matthew 5:39 - But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 
 Luke 22:36
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
Quote


Quote
Especially ironic since I never claimed that the Bible was the end all to this position, regarding marriage

It keeps coming back to that, though, doesn't it? I threw the question out to everyone - you chose to respond. No one has been able to come up with chapter and verse supporting that position yet.
Who is bringing it there? Is the nonsecular nature of one side and the secular nature of the other assumeable? Is one side also spritual and the other side Non spritural?

Quote
Gen 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh."

One MIGHT argue that gays can be "husband and wife" but Paul was pretty clear on the definition.  He himself apparently remained unmarried, and thought celibacy was a keen idea (to the everlasting discomfort of an awful lot of literal-minded Catholic priests).  But he recognized that celibacy wasn't particularly practical, and might even lead to sexual sins.  So he said:

1 Cor 7:2  "Nevertheless to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

It would be an awfully long stretch to suggest that this definition allowed for the possibility of same-sex marriage. 


And no mention of the term marriage being reserved for the union of a man and woman anywhere in there - which was my original question.

Quote
Is an unconsumated marrage ,a marrage?

Why wouldn't it be?
[/quote]
Back to what it is in the first place, is a marrage a business contract with government benefits cheifly at stake?

hnumpah

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Re: Unpopular decisions are the price of constitutional rights.
« Reply #98 on: November 20, 2008, 08:14:52 PM »
Quote
Marriage was established as the norm at creation.

Who married Adam and Eve? And why isn't marriage even mentioned in the Bible until the time of Jacob?

God did , his bringing them together is the first marrage.

I think Job is before Jacob in time , even if not in order by books , and who again were Jacobs parents?Grandparents?

Try and keep up, Plane. My point is that the word 'marriage' is not used in the Bible until Jacob's time. It's not used to describe the relationship between Adam and Eve, or anyone else, until then. So how, then, can it be established as a norm at creation? And nowhere in the Bible does it reserve the word 'marriage' for the union of a man and woman.

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Being unconsumated is grounds for annulment .

An unconsummated marriage is not required to be annulled. If both parties are happy with the arrangement, there is no reason for an annullment.

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This makes them kings then doesn't it?

Nope, just makes them the state supreme court.

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He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Doesn't say to resist, though, does it?

Quote
So you are stateing that Homosexuals just can't have sex at all?

Nope, just pointing out that they can live together in marriage (or whatever they end up calling it) and still not be committing a sin by your standards. By my standards, of course, they can be married and have all the sex they want, since sin doesn't exist.
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richpo64

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Re: Unpopular decisions are the price of constitutional rights.
« Reply #99 on: November 20, 2008, 08:22:13 PM »
>>Who married Adam and Eve?<<

God.

Plane

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Re: Unpopular decisions are the price of constitutional rights.
« Reply #100 on: November 21, 2008, 12:24:53 AM »


Try and keep up, Plane. My point is that the word 'marriage' is not used in the Bible until Jacob's time. It's not used to describe the relationship between Adam and Eve, or anyone else, until then. So how, then, can it be established as a norm at creation? And nowhere in the Bible does it reserve the word 'marriage' for the union of a man and woman.


The wife of Jacobs grandfather is mentioned that isn't marrage?

Adam and Eve had a hetrosexual monomous excluseive sexual relationship and raised children together , what part of marrage is left out of this?

Stray Pooch

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Re: Unpopular decisions are the price of constitutional rights.
« Reply #101 on: November 21, 2008, 12:58:27 AM »
Pretty sure that is not what I said.

I know. What you said was "I'm simply saying the insistence that homosexuals not be allowed to call their marriage a marriage seems a ridiculous sticking point."

If it is ridiculous for me to care about the use of the word marriage then it is EQUALLY ridiculous for homosexuals to care about it.  Either way, it is about interpretation of the word itself.  If all other things are equal, calling it a marriage is unnecessary.  I can call it an Irish Jig and it will still be a legal union. 

Since I consider marriage to be a sacrament from God, of which homosexual marriage would be an immoral parody, it makes perfectly good sense for me to object to the use of the term.  It is no more or less ridiculous than a homosexual saying that the use of any OTHER term but marriage is unacceptable even when all other rights and privileges are extended.  I consider the use of the term marriage to be conveying a sense of holiness to an unholy union.  A gay person would presumably consider using an alternative term to be conveying a sense of illegitimacy to a legitimate act.  EIther of these arguments might be the "correct" one, but both are equal in validity.  It is no more ridiculous for me to be concerned about the emotional and social implications of the word than it is for a gay person.


If we are talking about unions that are legally marriages in everything but name, then yeah I think the name is a battle that serves little purpose.

Yes.  It is ridiculous for homosexuals to keep battling about it.

But I understand it more from the homosexuals who think the name conveys legitimacy than from those who oppose it because the definition of the word as they understand it is something with which they cannot bear to part.[/color]

But that understanding is biased toward the homosexual view.  It is equally logical (though equally, though inversely, biased) to say that I understand it more from Christians who think the name conveys holiness than from those who support it because the definition of the word as society has used it for millenia is something with which they cannot bear to comply.  Your opinion that the Christian position (if I may style it so for the sake of ease) on marriage is ridiculous is based on your personal bias, not on reason.   If we relegate marriage to the churches and leave the legal business to the government, the issue goes away. 

To put it another way, if the government decides that Mormons cannot vote, I'm picking up my weapon.  But if a compromise is reached where we can cast "preference indications" which will carry the same value as a vote, just as long as I don't call it a vote, I'll be out there every November casting my preference indication with pride. 
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Plane

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Re: Unpopular decisions are the price of constitutional rights.
« Reply #102 on: November 21, 2008, 01:12:32 AM »

If all other things are equal, calling it a marriage is unnecessary.  I can call it an Irish Jig and it will still be a legal union.

Since I consider marriage to be a sacrament from God, of which homosexual marriage would be an immoral parody, it makes perfectly good sense for me to object to the use of the term.  It is no more or less ridiculous than a homosexual saying that the use of any OTHER term but marriage is unacceptable even when all other rights and privileges are extended.  I consider the use of the term marriage to be conveying a sense of holiness to an unholy union.  A gay person would presumably consider using an alternative term to be conveying a sense of illegitimacy to a legitimate act.  EIther of these arguments might be the "correct" one, but both are equal in validity.  It is no more ridiculous for me to be concerned about the emotional and social implications of the word than it is for a gay person.



I think we are getting to the kernel at the center, there were always illicit sexual unions that were not marrage , flings, shacking up ,concubines , pimps and prostitutes, etc. there are many hetrosexual sexual relationships that draw social opprobrim.

But "Marrage" from far before the time of Christ and in cultures flung far across the globe  is a socially sanctioned relationship .

In my opinion (I admit I am out of the loop so I take my own opinion with a grain of salt) it is the social approval that is desired and is so hard to be given.

Stray Pooch

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Re: Unpopular decisions are the price of constitutional rights.
« Reply #103 on: November 21, 2008, 02:08:50 AM »
Who married Adam and Eve?

God.

And why isn't marriage even mentioned in the Bible until the time of Jacob?

Because it was unnecessary to use that specific term.  In fact I very seriously doubt that the word "marriage" is ever mentioned in the Bible, since it was written in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic and "marriage" is an English word.  Yours is a silly, semantical argument.  The word testicles is not mentioned in the Bible either, yet I am sure that (to plagiarize Ogden Nash in a most undignified manner) Adam had 'em.  That marriage (or whatever Hebrew word was translated that way) is not mentioned until Jacob does not, in any rational way, indicate that Abraham and Sarah were not married.  Nor does it suggest that Adam and Eve were not married.  The Bible also mentions only four sons (and no daughters) of our original parents.  But that does not suggest that they had no more.  Logic and arithmetic indicate that they must have had many more.  The Bible doesn't mention all of the descendants of Israel, either.  It mentions only the ones that count. 

What is clear, however, from both of the verses that I quoted (and may others, which are unnecessary to make the point) is that God created man and woman, and intended them to be coupled in a manner which was to be permanent, fruitful and sanctified.  The word marriage is what we call it in English today.  Sexual relations outside of those bonds is universally recognized as inappropriate.  It is clearly prohibited in Mosiac law (Exodus 20:14).  Christ took it a step further and made even THINKING about it a sin (Matt 5:27-28). 

Clearly, though the term itself may not be used from page 1, marriage was the intention of God and the practice of society right from the start.


The California supreme court does, if it finds that the amendment violates other provisions of the constitution.

No it doesn't.  The people have the right to be contrary.  They can say "All men are created equal, except gays."  The US Constitution made that distinction against blacks for over 90 years until it was amended by the people.  Indeed, the argument against Prop 8 says nothing about it violating other portions of the constitution.  It simply states that the procedure used to adopt it was wrong.  It does so by trying to redefine the amendment as a full constitutional revision, which it certainly is not.  A revision (that is, rewriting the constitution) would require far more legal steps, including a supermajority of the California legislature, before it evere got to a vote.

But that argument is nonsense.  The US Constitution itselfs contains a provision for it's own rewriting.  But we have made sweeping changes to the original intent of the constitution without ever "revising" it.   We have supported and then abolished slavery.  We have provided for the citizenship of previous persons considered only property under the original provisions.  We have given the franchise to women, outlawed and then reinstated to good grace alcohol, changed methods of electing our leaders, readjusted the balance of powers, and changed the methods of succession in emergencies.  That's just what we, the people, when properly consulted have done.  The Executive, Legislative and especially Judicial branches of the government have added and subtracted to the substance of the Constitution almost at will.  Our country is nothing like our founders envisioned, and yet the same constitution they wrote is in place today.


It keeps coming back to that, though, doesn't it? I threw the question out to everyone - you chose to respond. No one has been able to come up with chapter and verse supporting that position yet.

You have mixed several posts in your response.  While sirs (I believe) posted this particular response, I'll add my two cents.  I chose to respond as well, and I believe both of my scripture quotes do, in fact, support (and rather clearly at that) the concept of marriage and its traditional definition.  You have not repudiated either of them, and I have added other evidence in this post.


And no mention of the term marriage being reserved for the union of a man and woman anywhere in there - which was my original question.


Your original question is specious.  The fact that there is no specific verse which says "thou shalt not call two guys gittin' it on marriage" proves nothing.  Neither does the strawman argument about the Bible not mentioning gun rights since guns did not exist during any period the Bible mentions.  The Bible makes the definition, purpose and practice of marriage clear. 
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 02:12:54 AM by Stray Pooch »
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sirs

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Re: Unpopular decisions are the price of constitutional rights.
« Reply #104 on: November 21, 2008, 11:42:55 AM »
*golf clap*     Well Summized Poochster        8)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle