Author Topic: Irony on the Bailout  (Read 4448 times)

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Brassmask

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Irony on the Bailout
« on: November 18, 2008, 09:11:27 PM »
So, the execs from the Big 3 automakers (American-made big three 'cause last I heard Toyota had moved into number one or two) were in DC with their hands out insinuating that the unions had driven their American auto industry to ruin while they were turning out cars that only got 18city/22highway.

The right is out there pushing the unions meme and the idea that Chapter 11 is the best way to go (ironically, I again), letting the auto industry implode in America.  My point about the irony in this position is that, as usual, the right is thinking ideologically which has been proven, in the last 8 years, to be the opposite of rationally.

Yes, allowing the auto industry to implode would serve their ideological tenets: free markets rule(!), unions have destroyed this nation by driving up costs(!), disaster allows certain people to make billions(!); but, what they fail to understand is if the auto industry is out of business in the US, that will put nearly 3 million people out of work if you count all the dealerships, mechanics, etc.

The irony is when those 3 million go jobless, that would lead this country closer to if not all the way into a depression.  Arguments about what technically indicates a recession would be totally moot.  The right is demanding because of their irrational ideology a New Depression.

The Dept of Labor has this to say:

Quote
   The unemployment rate rose by 0.4 percentage point to 6.5 percent in October,
and the number of unemployed persons increased by 603,000 to 10.1 million.  Over
the past 12 months, the number of unemployed persons has increased by 2.8 mil-
lion, and the unemployment rate has risen by 1.7 percentage points.  (See
table A-1.)

So what's another 3 million, right?

Well, with nearly 14 million out of work, that would give us an unemplyment rate of about, what, 9%?  That's what it was in 1930.  What's interesting about that is this question.  What was the US government's eventual solution to the Depression?

Answer:  The New Deal

President-elect Barack Obama has already indicated that he is totally in favor of creating jobs by fixing our infrastructure, or by possibly building a national power grid.  What makes right-wingers think he won't go further?  Is there some kind of easiness felt for national infrastructure projects that right-wingers don't feel with national health care projects?

IMO, the auto industry should be allowed to crash and burn for the piss-poor way its been run for the last 20 years.  Continually they have mass produced crappy vehicles with HORRIBLE gas mileage then demanding that we pay exorbitant prices for upkeep and repair.  They've lallygagged on hybrids and electric cars. They've purposely undermined and destroyed hybrid and electric car technologies for unknown reasons claiming that they don't have the technology while thousands of Prii pour into America getting 48 miles to the gallon.

Big picture, though, it will be just another inch towards socialism in America.  It won't be RBE, but it will be closer.  Keep on keeping on, GOP!

BSB

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Re: Irony on the Bailout
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2008, 10:00:00 PM »
Well, Brass, I don't know about the politics of it, but if I won't invest in a GM, or Ford, car for my garage why would I want to invest my tax dollars in bailing them out?

 

Plane

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Re: Irony on the Bailout
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2008, 10:35:30 PM »

The right is out there pushing the unions meme and the idea that Chapter 11 is the best way to go (ironically, I again), letting the auto industry implode in America.  ...........

IMO, the auto industry should be allowed to crash and burn for the piss-poor way its been run for the last 20 years.  Continually they have mass produced crappy vehicles with HORRIBLE gas mileage then demanding that we pay exorbitant prices for upkeep and repair.  They've lallygagged on hybrids and electric cars. They've purposely undermined and destroyed hybrid and electric car technologies for unknown reasons claiming that they don't have the technology while thousands of Prii pour into America getting 48 miles to the gallon.


Welcome to the conservative movement Brassmask.

I think that the reasons you are displeased with the Detroit big three is very much shared with the conservatives.

Universe Prince

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Re: Irony on the Bailout
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2008, 10:41:20 PM »

Yes, allowing the auto industry to implode would serve their ideological tenets: free markets rule(!), unions have destroyed this nation by driving up costs(!), disaster allows certain people to make billions(!); but, what they fail to understand is if the auto industry is out of business in the US, that will put nearly 3 million people out of work if you count all the dealerships, mechanics, etc.


I must have missed the news story about someone advocating that the entire U.S. auto industry should collapse. Who is saying this?


The irony is when those 3 million go jobless, that would lead this country closer to if not all the way into a depression.


No, the irony is people who bitch about corporations and oligarchies running the country are clamoring for government to continue being in bed with corporations and the wealthy.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Irony on the Bailout
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2008, 11:35:44 PM »
They've purposely undermined and destroyed hybrid and electric car technologies for unknown reasons claiming that they don't have the technology while thousands of Prii pour into America getting 48 miles to the gallon.

I think most Priuses are actually built in the USA, perhaps of Japanese parts.They are not flowing into America so much as they are built here.

General Motors has always had extremely good Research and Development facilities. The problem is that it has mostly been research and very little development. They were first with modern electric cars, but they sent them all back to the crusher. Now the Japanese have bested their technology.

The original Chevy Volt was a truly snazzy looking vehicle. But now they have unveiled what it will really look like, and ugh, it's just an updated Malibu.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

richpo64

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Re: Irony on the Bailout
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2008, 01:53:15 PM »
>>No, the irony is people who bitch about corporations and oligarchies running the country are clamoring for government to continue being in bed with corporations and the wealthy.<<

Bingo.

Also, I don't know where Brass got the idea the auto execs are blaming the unions or they want to go chapter 11. If they want to go chapter 11 they don't need government money to do it.

I think Brass is in another dimension again.

Say hello to evil Spock for me Brass!

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Irony on the Bailout
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2008, 02:21:06 PM »
why should soccer Moms making far less bail out the bums making 73 an hour!

let 'em sink or swim

no bailout!




"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Irony on the Bailout
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2008, 03:59:26 PM »
why should soccer Moms making far less bail out the bums making 73 an hour!

let 'em sink or swim

no bailout!

==================
Why assembly line workers making a middle class salary piss guys like you off when the fools who decided to stake the future of GM, Ford and Chrysler on huge guzzling SUVs and trucks make twenty times as much makes no bloody sense to me.

The auto execs are the ones who screwed up here. You give a GM union guy a bunch of Avalanche parts, there is no way he could assemble a Prius or anything else from them but a big stupid Avalanche.

The Big Three screwed up, but don't blame the giys who did just what they were told to do. Quality in US cars has gone up a lot in the last ten years or so.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Irony on the Bailout
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2008, 07:11:08 PM »
yeah sure it's global warmings fault  ::)

it is the quality that sucks not the size

all of the american cars are not big

they cant compete head to head on the small vehicles

a small toyota tacoma pickup vs. a small chevy s-10 pickup truck is just no comparison as far as quality
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 07:12:41 PM by ChristiansUnited4LessGvt »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Irony on the Bailout
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2008, 07:17:15 PM »


Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

By MITT ROMNEY
Published: November 18, 2008


IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won?t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed.

Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course ? the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.

I love cars, American cars. I was born in Detroit, the son of an auto chief executive. In 1954, my dad, George Romney, was tapped to run American Motors when its president suddenly died. The company itself was on life support ? banks were threatening to deal it a death blow. The stock collapsed. I watched Dad work to turn the company around ? and years later at business school, they were still talking about it. From the lessons of that turnaround, and from my own experiences, I have several prescriptions for Detroit?s automakers.

First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.

That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota?s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product ? it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.

Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries ? from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.

The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, ?Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.?

You don?t have to look far for industries with unions that went down that road. Companies in the 21st century cannot perpetuate the destructive labor relations of the 20th. This will mean a new direction for the U.A.W., profit sharing or stock grants to all employees and a change in Big Three management culture.

The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms ? all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.

Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies ? especially fuel-saving designs ? that may not arrive for years. Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.

Just as important to the future of American carmakers is the sales force. When sales are down, you don?t want to lose the only people who can get them to grow. So don?t fire the best dealers, and don?t crush them with new financial or performance demands they can?t meet.

It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research ? on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like ? that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration. The federal government should also rectify the imbedded tax penalties that favor foreign carmakers.

But don?t ask Washington to give shareholders and bondholders a free pass ? they bet on management and they lost.

The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.

In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?_r=3
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

sirs

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Re: Irony on the Bailout
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2008, 07:23:03 PM »
Some people are under the misconstrued opinion of this mass amount of unemployed, as if there'll be no jobs for them to go to, if the big 3 go bankrupt.  Newsflash to those folks, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc., will have no problem looking for hordes of new employees to fill the void when they buy up many of these now non-running American Car plants.

Just don't expect to be making a king's ransom as a salary, is all
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Religious Dick

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Re: Irony on the Bailout
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2008, 07:30:09 PM »
Yes, allowing the auto industry to implode would serve their ideological tenets: free markets rule(!), unions have destroyed this nation by driving up costs(!), disaster allows certain people to make billions(!); but, what they fail to understand is if the auto industry is out of business in the US, that will put nearly 3 million people out of work if you count all the dealerships, mechanics, etc.

Small problem here - those 3 million people are employed because the big 3 are selling cars to people. If the big 3 cease selling cars, where are those people going to be buying cars?

That's right! From other car companies who will have to increase production to meet the demand created by the implosion of the big 3. And to increase production and sell more cars, they'll have to hire more people, buy more supplies and services, open more dealerships, etc. Net result: probably just as many jobs created as there are destroyed.
I speak of civil, social man under law, and no other.
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sirs

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Re: Irony on the Bailout
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2008, 07:31:44 PM »
If the big 3 cease selling cars, where are those people going to be buying cars?  That's right! From other car companies who will have to increase production to meet the demand created by the implosion of the big 3. And to increase production and sell more cars, they'll have to hire more people, buy more supplies and services, open more dealerships, etc. Net result: probably just as many jobs created as there are destroyed.

Precisely
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Brassmask

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Re: Irony on the Bailout
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2008, 08:09:10 PM »
>>No, the irony is people who bitch about corporations and oligarchies running the country are clamoring for government to continue being in bed with corporations and the wealthy.<<

Bingo.

Also, I don't know where Brass got the idea the auto execs are blaming the unions or they want to go chapter 11. If they want to go chapter 11 they don't need government money to do it.

I think Brass is in another dimension again.

Say hello to evil Spock for me Brass!


Rich, the right wing talking heads have done nothing but blame the unions and their damnable pensions and health care costs.  $2200 per vehicle price?

The reason the auto execs don't want to go into Chapter 11 is they know no one will buy a car from a company that is in bankruptcy because who is going to guarantee the warranties?

On the other hand, Ackerman asked the execs today if they were all going to streamline their operations by selling the multi-million dollar private jets they all took to get to the hearing today.  None said that they would.

They don't deserve to be bailed out.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Irony on the Bailout
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2008, 10:26:23 PM »
On the other hand, Ackerman asked the execs today if they were all going to streamline their operations by selling the multi-million dollar private jets they all took to get to the hearing today.  None said that they would.

They don't deserve to be bailed out.

================================================
The people who assemble Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, BMWs and Mercedes Benzes here in the US are comparatively well paid, as are those who make GM, Ford and Chrysler products. The difference is in executive compensation, and design of the products.

If the government lends money to these companies, they need to demand that they ditch the private airplanes, huge salaries and other fancy crap, as well as get rid of the geniuses that decided that somehow pushing guzzler SUVs and stupid pimped-out trucks was going to keep them going forever, even though it was clear that the end had come for cheap fuel.

This has to happen before they take it out on the workers. All the workers did was what they were told to do: they were given Avalanche parts, they put together Avalanches. The workers had no say in what it was they built.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."