Author Topic: Freedom of speech or freedom to stir up the pot for hateful sake?  (Read 7050 times)

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sirs

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Re: Freedom of speech or freedom to stir up the pot for hateful sake?
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2008, 01:51:12 AM »
Good deduction
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Freedom of speech or freedom to stir up the pot for hateful sake?
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2008, 08:29:37 AM »
Good Christians do not judge, perhaps, but some Christians obviously do. Prop 8 was an exercise in judging that the Christian definition of the word marriage was so much better than a more tolerant definition that would allow two gay people to get married in a CIVIL CEREMONY that it had to be enacted into law.

Paul said that good Christians had a duty to be missionaries, to spread the religion all over the place to those who are not Christian. The word "gospel" translates as "good news" The word GOOD is clearly a value judgment One does not catch Zoroastrians or Druses doing this, ever. They are happy just to induct only those born to fellow Zoroastrians or Druses into the faith.

I think Paul had a rather narrow view of the word "judge" which is more like our word "sentence". Christians clearly should believe that they have the best religion and therefore should spread it until everyone is a Christian. But they should not sentence people to Hell and damnation, even though they believe that God will do this, eventually.

Still, the word "best" is a value judgment.

Christians seem unaware that Jesus was not trying to found a new religion: he was a reformer of Judaism. Paul was the guy who transformed Christianity into an evangelical and missionary religion. Jesus only speaks to one Gentile in the entire New Testament, and says nothing to sad woman about joining his religion.

Think of Coca-Cola, which started life as a medicine with some very powerful ingredients (Kola nuts and Cocaine), brewed in a wooden vat behind some guy's home to a soft drink that was marketed to replace sarsaparilla and was not really marketable until ice and/or refrigeration was widely available.
 
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sirs

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Re: Freedom of speech or freedom to stir up the pot for hateful sake?
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2008, 03:07:44 PM »
And that would be a prime example of a bad deduction
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Freedom of speech or freedom to stir up the pot for hateful sake?
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2008, 09:22:38 PM »

And that would be a prime example of a bad deduction

============
Okay, why?
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sirs

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Re: Freedom of speech or freedom to stir up the pot for hateful sake?
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2008, 09:57:32 PM »
Start with a false premise....you can pretty much ignore the rest as well
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Cynthia

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Re: Freedom of speech or freedom to stir up the pot for hateful sake?
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2008, 10:14:33 PM »
Quote
This is true. But on average Christians pray for others, especially non-thesists, than theisist "pray" for Christians.


How should we pray? To whom, or what? The urn that holds my dog's ashes? A Coleman lantern? What? If your god does not exist to us, what should we pray to?

Quote
The followers of Christ do not judge.

That's a laugh.

Quote
Well, the Christians I know do not judge atheists. I tend to wonder if the atheist, however are judging my religion.

I'd just about bet every Christian who has met an atheist has thought to himself that here is a person who is going to hell because he does not believe  in god. He may not say it out loud, but more than likely the thought is there. That, even if unspoken, is passing judgement.

As for the other way around, I could care less about your religion, as long as you don't try to push it on me. I've been where you are; I like where I am better.


You must have been burned by a few people in your life, HP.

I don't agree that it's a laugh at all.

Sorry to hear of your disdain.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Freedom of speech or freedom to stir up the pot for hateful sake?
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2008, 10:49:28 AM »
Start with a false premise....you can pretty much ignore the rest as well


What false premise? That the word "good" is not the result of a value judgment?
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Freedom of speech or freedom to stir up the pot for hateful sake?
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2008, 11:45:47 AM »
Prop 8 was an exercise in judging that the Christian definition of the word marriage was so much better than a more tolerant definition

THAT was your false premise, since this issue has nothing to do with wanting to claim some "better definition".  Most religions, including Christianity don't have a political correctness disclaimer attached, so it has zip to do with wanting a lesser PC definition than folks like yourself want.  It has always been about not accepting what God clearly references as a sinful act, as somehow perfectly acceptable.

THUS the compromise, with Civil Unions.  ALL the same rights, that folks like yourself CLAIM is the issue, but as you've clearly demonstrated, isn't the issue at all.  It's all about mandating acceptance of a sinful act, upon all, by co-opting a term that has always been designated to that of a non-sinful act.  THUS the no-compromise tact on your part
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Freedom of speech or freedom to stir up the pot for hateful sake?
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2008, 11:51:47 AM »
The word "sinful" is not applicable to civil government.

A civil single sex marriage is the province of the state, a civil entity. In civil society, thigs are illegal or legal.

The church may define marriage as it wishes. The church decides what is sinful or unsinful.

You are deliberately confusing the issue.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Freedom of speech or freedom to stir up the pot for hateful sake?
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2008, 01:48:27 PM »
Naaaa, the confusion here was you trying to ride your false premise.  Sorry, it ain't flying, regardless of how many deflection efforts you throw up
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Freedom of speech or freedom to stir up the pot for hateful sake?
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2008, 07:00:54 PM »
There is no false premise.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Freedom of speech or freedom to stir up the pot for hateful sake?
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2008, 07:02:57 PM »
LOL........riiiiiiiiiight             :D
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Freedom of speech or freedom to stir up the pot for hateful sake?
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2008, 07:46:10 PM »
What is the traditional Hindu, Muslim and Buddist definition of Marrage?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Freedom of speech or freedom to stir up the pot for hateful sake?
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2008, 10:53:11 PM »
What is the traditional Hindu, Muslim and Buddist definition of Marrage?

Muslims can have up to four wives, but they must treat them all equally.

Hindus can also be polygamous. Buddhists generally have one wife and one or more concubines if they can support them.

But these are RELIGIOUS ideas, and the issue before the law is CIVIL marriages, which is not the same thing.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: Freedom of speech or freedom to stir up the pot for hateful sake?
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2008, 11:26:41 PM »
Taking Marriage Private
By STEPHANIE COONTZ

Olympia, Wash.

WHY do people ? gay or straight ? need the state?s permission to marry? For most of Western history, they didn?t, because marriage was a private contract between two families. The parents? agreement to the match, not the approval of church or state, was what confirmed its validity.

For 16 centuries, Christianity also defined the validity of a marriage on the basis of a couple?s wishes. If two people claimed they had exchanged marital vows ? even out alone by the haystack ? the Catholic Church accepted that they were validly married.

In 1215, the church decreed that a ?licit? marriage must take place in church. But people who married illictly had the same rights and obligations as a couple married in church: their children were legitimate; the wife had the same inheritance rights; the couple was subject to the same prohibitions against divorce.

Not until the 16th century did European states begin to require that marriages be performed under legal auspices. In part, this was an attempt to prevent unions between young adults whose parents opposed their match.

The American colonies officially required marriages to be registered, but until the mid-19th century, state supreme courts routinely ruled that public cohabitation was sufficient evidence of a valid marriage. By the later part of that century, however, the United States began to nullify common-law marriages and exert more control over who was allowed to marry.

By the 1920s, 38 states prohibited whites from marrying blacks, ?mulattos,? Japanese, Chinese, Indians, ?Mongolians,? ?Malays? or Filipinos. Twelve states would not issue a marriage license if one partner was a drunk, an addict or a ?mental defect.? Eighteen states set barriers to remarriage after divorce.

In the mid-20th century, governments began to get out of the business of deciding which couples were ?fit? to marry. Courts invalidated laws against interracial marriage, struck down other barriers and even extended marriage rights to prisoners.

But governments began relying on marriage licenses for a new purpose: as a way of distributing resources to dependents. The Social Security Act provided survivors? benefits with proof of marriage. Employers used marital status to determine whether they would provide health insurance or pension benefits to employees? dependents. Courts and hospitals required a marriage license before granting couples the privilege of inheriting from each other or receiving medical information.

In the 1950s, using the marriage license as a shorthand way to distribute benefits and legal privileges made some sense because almost all adults were married. Cohabitation and single parenthood by choice were very rare.

Today, however, possession of a marriage license tells us little about people?s interpersonal responsibilities. Half of all Americans aged 25 to 29 are unmarried, and many of them already have incurred obligations as partners, parents or both. Almost 40 percent of America?s children are born to unmarried parents. Meanwhile, many legally married people are in remarriages where their obligations are spread among several households.

Using the existence of a marriage license to determine when the state should protect interpersonal relationships is increasingly impractical. Society has already recognized this when it comes to children, who can no longer be denied inheritance rights, parental support or legal standing because their parents are not married.

As Nancy Polikoff, an American University law professor, argues, the marriage license no longer draws reasonable dividing lines regarding which adult obligations and rights merit state protection. A woman married to a man for just nine months gets Social Security survivor?s benefits when he dies. But a woman living for 19 years with a man to whom she isn?t married is left without government support, even if her presence helped him hold down a full-time job and pay Social Security taxes. A newly married wife or husband can take leave from work to care for a spouse, or sue for a partner?s wrongful death. But unmarried couples typically cannot, no matter how long they have pooled their resources and how faithfully they have kept their commitments.

Possession of a marriage license is no longer the chief determinant of which obligations a couple must keep, either to their children or to each other. But it still determines which obligations a couple can keep ? who gets hospital visitation rights, family leave, health care and survivor?s benefits. This may serve the purpose of some moralists. But it doesn?t serve the public interest of helping individuals meet their care-giving commitments.

Perhaps it?s time to revert to a much older marital tradition. Let churches decide which marriages they deem ?licit.? But let couples ? gay or straight ? decide if they want the legal protections and obligations of a committed relationship.

Stephanie Coontz, a professor of history at Evergreen State College, is the author of ?Marriage, a History: How Love Conquered Marriage.?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/26/opinion/26coontz.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print