What a surprise - - It really WAS official policy. Gee, who woulda thunk?

[Michael Tee]

<<This week the Senate Armed Services Committee issued a powerful report, released jointly by chair Carl Levin and ranking member John McCain, that received the unanimous support of its Democratic and Republican members. The report concluded that Donald Rumsfeld and other high-level officials of the administration consciously adopted a policy for the torture and abuse of prisoners held in the war on terror. It also found that they attempted to cover up their conduct by waging a P.R. campaign to put the blame on a group of young soldiers they called “rotten apples.” Lawyers figure prominently among the miscreants identified. Evidently the torture policy’s authors then enlisted ethics-challenged lawyers to craft memoranda designed to give torture “the appearance of legality” as part of a scheme to create the torture program despite internal opposition. A declassified summary of the report can be read here; the full report is filled with classified information and therefore has been submitted to the Department of Defense with a request that the materials be declassified for release. (Don’t expect that to happen before January 20, however).>>

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/12/hbc-90004012

How well I remember the debates in this group that erupted after Abu Ghraib.  You would have had to be a moron to believe that such widespread, virtually unpunished (except at the lowest level) criminal actions were the spontaneous acts of rogue "bad apples" but that was the solid wall of denial that any reasonable argument was met with when any attempt was made to affix responsibility to the appropriate command levels.

Interesting to see the current response of the brain-dead crypto-fascist brigade - - so far, I've seen only the "inevitability" defence ("What else COULD we do?") which should be familiar to any student of Nazi apologetics.  It really isn't worth pursuing - - it is what it is.  Some very bad things may be in store for your country in the immediate future.  Take comfort in the knowledge that whatever shit is coming down the pike at you, it won't be nearly bad enough.

[richpo64]

Terrorist free for 7 1/2 years.

We'll see how long that lasts after January. Duck and cover New Yorkers!

[Michael Tee]

You could have been equally "terrorist" free just by tightening up security at airports, bridges and tunnels.  Invading Iraq contributed nothing to your security, cost you over 4,000 lives plus the crippling of 30,000 more and left you pretty much broke.  Wait for the bills to come in for lifetime care of the permanently disabled.  Nice "security planning," Einstein.

[Plane]

You could have been equally "terrorist" free just by tightening up security at airports, bridges and tunnels.  Invading Iraq contributed nothing to your security, cost you over 4,000 lives plus the crippling of 30,000 more and left you pretty much broke.  Wait for the bills to come in for lifetime care of the permanently disabled.  Nice "security planning," Einstein.

So our better choice would be to tighten the security we live with so tight that terrorism is impossible to perform?

That is pretty tight security , I don't think we could do it very long.

[richpo64]

>>You could have been equally "terrorist" free just by tightening up security at airports, bridges and tunnels.<<

<chuckle>

Sure. It's amazing how willfully ignorant the left is when it comes to terrorism. So if Barry takes your advice and just tightens up security at airports, bridges and tunnels, we can all sleep soundly at night knowing we're doing all we can.

How fucking stupid are you?

[Michael Tee]

<<So our better choice would be to tighten the security we live with . . . >>

Yes.

<< . . .  so tight that terrorism is impossible to perform?>>

Did I say that?  I don't think so.  Considering that your security prior to the September 11 attacks was criminally lax, I think all you had to do was ratchet up security to a state of reasonable adequacy more or less to where it is now. 

<<That [security so tight that terrorism is impossible to perform] is pretty tight security , I don't think we could do it very long.>>

Apparently, you must enjoy debating with yourself.  I never suggested that you adopt security that tight, so I don't know whether it's possible or not to do it for "very long."  Why don't you wrestle with the problem a little longer and let me know who wins the debate, you or you?

[Michael Tee]

<<So if Barry takes your advice and just tightens up security at airports, bridges and tunnels . . .>>

I actually think that's already been done, hasn't it?  Or is it your position that security at airports, tunnels and bridges is more or less where it was on Sept. 10, 2001?

<< . . . we can all sleep soundly at night knowing we're doing all we can.>>

No, that would be a huge mistake.  I guess if you were attacked by 20 terrorists from Saudi Arabia who planned their attack from Afghanistan, "doing all you can" would have to include the invasion of Iraq.  That's brilliant.

<<How fucking stupid are you?>>

That's an interesting question.  You better hope the answer is "Not very" because if I am "fucking stupid," that would leave guys like you somewhere between an earthworm and a tapeworm in the IQ department.

[BSB]

The last two sentences in the opening post are way out of line, and boarder on the take that because a few muslims attacked us on 9/11, they all should pay.

[richpo64]

>>That's an interesting question.  You better hope the answer is "Not very"<<

Yup, that's the answer.

[Michael Tee]

<<The last two sentences in the opening post are way out of line, and boarder on the take that because a few muslims attacked us on 9/11, they all should pay.>>

So in your humble opinion, who the hell SHOULD pay for the crimes of the Bush administration?  For starting a war of choice based on outrageous lies that Iraq constituted an imminent threat to the USA?  For instituting a policy of torture and blaming it on "rogue elements," a "few bad apples" etc. when they weren't actually denying that it was even happening?  Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died in that war and more hundreds of thousands horribly maimed and crippled in it.  Who pays?

At the end of WWII, the German people's excuse was, "Well, How Could WE Know?"  It had some plausibility, since every newsreel, every film, every book, every newspaper, every magazine and every radio broadcast passed through the censoring offices of Josef Goebbels.  Every lesson taught in every school, every textbook, every debate was an instrument of Nazi propaganda.  Maybe they really DIDN'T know.

What is the excuse today of the citizens of the U.S.A.?

[richpo64]

>>What is the excuse today of the citizens of the U.S.A.?<<

Don't need one.

[BSB]

Michael, if someone hasn't told you you got big problems, let me be the first. You got big problems.

[Michael Tee]

BSB, show me a man without problems and I'll show you a fucking vegetable.  Sure I got big problems, but what on earth does that have to do with the subject at hand?

You make a point, I answer it - - with some interest as to what your response is gonna be - - and then suddenly the topic has become MY alleged problems.   When I'm ready to discuss my problems with you and/or the group, I'll letcha know.  Right now I'm interested in collective responsibility.  You don't want to discuss collective responsibility and guilt anymore, that's kinda disappointing to me because nobody else seems to be interested in the subject and I was looking forward to hearing your POV.  Too bad.  Anyone else wanna take a shot at it?

[BSB]

When you pull your shit together, and stop making stupid comments like America has more coming then a group of terrorists could ever deliver, I'll think about conversing with you.   

[Michael Tee]

There was nothing particularly stupid about that comment.  Whether it's literally true or not might be debatable, but as an expression of disgust and contempt it's perfectly valid.  I would have liked to have had your response to my last post, but I don't want to debate under arbitrary pre-conditions imposed on me by one side or the other as to what I can or can't say.  You've got my opinion for what it's worth.  Take it or leave it.