Blood on his hands

[Michael Tee]

This is a debate club. Not a fight club.

And it will be managed as such>>

Sure  - - a debate club where one of the debaters can land a few below the belt and retreat back under the cover of a shield which protects him from any comparable retaliation by any member who wants to stoop to his level.

Maybe in a crazy way, it makes some kind of sense.  We'll keep the debate civil and those of us who incur the wrath of our most privileged member will just have to cut him some slack.  A lesson in forbearance, so to speak.  Speaking for myself, I'm sure I could use one, as could some of our other members.  What point is ever served by descending into flame war anyway?

[Cynthia]

Had to add more. Re read, please.

[Cynthia]

  Re: Blood on his hands
« Reply #46 on: Today at 11:31:41 PM » Quote Modify 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Michael Tee on Today at 11:18:55 PM
This is a debate club. Not a fight club.

And it will be managed as such>>

Sure  - - a debate club where one of the debaters can land a few below the belt and retreat back under the cover of a shield which protects him from any comparable retaliation by any member who wants to stoop to his level.

Maybe in a crazy way, it makes some kind of sense.  We'll keep the debate civil and those of us who incur the wrath of our most privileged member will just have to cut him some slack.  A lesson in forbearance, so to speak.  Speaking for myself, I'm sure I could use one, as could some of our other members.  What point is ever served by descending into flame war anyway?


Mtee...sometimes you don't see the forest in your own woodland.

You come across hating America. You do. I am not one to bash you. I like your style, but when you focus more on the fact that Americans aren't "with it" or that we lack in some way or another...especially to those who have FOUGHT for this country....that flies in the face. Come on...human beings aren't supposed to agree with every darn thing we spill out in this world...let alone this board.

I think you have a lot of good ideas as well as basic humanity threads throughout your veins.

But, all in all..for some....It's not easy to hear your charming "Canandian way". Down and dirty is what is needed when you enter the field of the soldier. You can't expect one to suddenly accept your ideals.

I am not saying you are less valuable in the debate room. I am saying that there are folks in here who aren't going to be able to "logically' hear you out when you tend to run down the average Joe American.

Just a thought. You have every right to your opinions. I have agreed with some of those opinions, but men are funny that way. You can't expect to make nice- nice with a man who isn't that "into you".
 In fact, that man would rather spit in your eye than to make nice when you come across with such anti-american sentiment.
Just a thought, mind you....This board is just that a magical message board with made up people and real folks.
With heart felt sentiments and real life intelligence.
With egos that hide behind the curtain, and politicians who rule their planet a bit more than they should.
It's a place to breathe. It's a place to tread lightly.....lest you go steady with the members in charge.

No one in here is going to end up virtually touching base or making that final point because it's

a place for thought and print.....a living book room, an interactive diary....and most of all.....a place for one to rest in the sun .

We are fortunate to be able to make this our place for voicing opinions and such.

But we aint gunna make nice with anyone on a minute/daily basis.

Don't expect something in here. . especially when you are expecting something in here.
Cindy

[Michael Tee]

Cindy, I write things as I see them  and I see a lot of bad stuff regarding America.  Like any country, America is a mixture of good and bad, but I don't see any point, when so much evil is being worked around the world by America, in focusing on all the good in your country.  That is NOT what people need to hear now because it is seized upon in justification of some of the most evil and horrific things going on as we speak.

America needs to change.  Whethe Obama will change anything remains to be seen, but I am getting a sick feeling in my gut that the changes will be superficial and/or minimal.

The world is full of fucking morons, even here in this group and maybe even moreso here in this group, but I certainly don't write in the hopes that millions will suddenly have a "Eureka!" moment and say "Hey maybe this guy's on  to something."  I write to put my views out before others and what those others do with them is up to them, not up to me.  I'm glad I say what I have to say, and - - credit where credit's due - - glad I CAN say what I have to say.

One final word - - nothing I write here is original - - it's all been researched and said before, by individuals such as C. Wright Mills, Karl Marx, Noam Chomsky, Edwin Said, Naomi Klein, Gabriel Kolko, Paul Craig Roberts and many others.  One of the reasons I post in this group is the abysmal ignorance and freakishly distorted view of American and world history that I find here.  It's obvious that virtually none of the posters in this group have even the barest familiarity with the works of any of these fine writers, journalists and philosophers.

[Michael Tee]

<<It's obvious that virtually none of the posters in this group have even the barest familiarity with the works of any of these fine writers, journalists and philosophers.>>

A particularly dumb-ass statement that I can't go to sleep with without modifying it.  Obviously, _JS, Brass, XO, Prince, Lanya and others (my apologies to any left off this list) DO have a knowledge, and more than a passing one, with the POVs that I referenced.

Sorry, guys.

[BSB]

>>Cindy, I write things as I see them..<<


>>One final word - - nothing I write here is original - -<<


Yeh, you're a real genius.

[BT]

Maybe in a crazy way, it makes some kind of sense.  We'll keep the debate civil and those of us who incur the wrath of our most privileged member will just have to cut him some slack.  A lesson in forbearance, so to speak.  Speaking for myself, I'm sure I could use one, as could some of our other members.  What point is ever served by descending into flame war anyway?

I'm glad you are beginning to understand.

What you don't understand is that if Knute aimed the same barbs at other members of this forum with known infirmities he would be just as gone. Because his attack was personal, it was vengeful and it was mean spirited. We don't do that. And we won't do that. And he can no longer do that, for as long as he is suspended.

[Cynthia]

Oh....Mtee, Mtee....where do I begin.

Researched based writers? What is bad about America?

I don't see any point, when so much evil is being worked around the world by America, in focusing on all the good in your country.  That is NOT what people need to hear now because it is seized upon in justification of some of the most evil and horrific things going on as we speak.

MY GOD, man....SO MUCH EVIL? SO much??? Can you not even begin to see anything good from America? ARe we Hitler's Germany in your view? WOw....HORRIFIC? What is more horrific than flying planes into building with innocent human beings going about their daily work.and they weren't even ALL AMERICANS? What do you understand about evil? You're kidding me. Come on, dude. Justification? Ok, so Bush was an idiot. But, Saddam cut off women's fingers if they chose to wear nail polish. HE chemically burned babies for FUCKING SAKE.

HOrrific??


The world is full of fucking morons, even here in this group and maybe even moreso here in this group, but I certainly don't write in the hopes that millions will suddenly have a "Eureka!" moment and say "Hey maybe this guy's on  to something."  I write to put my views out before others and what those others do with them is up to them, not up to me.  I'm glad I say what I have to say, and - - credit where credit's due - - glad I CAN say what I have to say.


What views do you really want us to read OUT THERE? What? YOu have a freedom to spell out anything you want, but dude you are a maniac. What? credit due? You have put your ideas out there. Sure there are greedy bastards in our nation. Sure....but you have no freaking idea what it means to be an American. We are not all walking dead wall street fat cats. You smack us all in the face....from me, Irish decent (father couldn't date the woman he wanted to because he was IRISH?? gezzzzus).
Hate? Prejudice? Give me a break. No one in this world is without sorrow and the butt of joke or hatred.
Yet, you think we are so arrogant that you can blanketly hate us all?

Damn man...this is a huge nation. Native Americans live in my world. I teach them daily...You want to tell them that they are BAD AMERICANS.....Screw you!
Ok...bordering on a bit of pissiness here. sorry....but MTEE...come on.


One final word - - nothing I write here is original - - it's all been researched and said before, by individuals such as C. Wright Mills, Karl Marx, Noam Chomsky, Edwin Said, Naomi Klein, Gabriel Kolko, Paul Craig Roberts and many others.  One of the reasons I post in this group is the abysmal ignorance and freakishly distorted view of American and world history that I find here.  It's obvious that virtually none of the posters in this group have even the barest familiarity with the works of any of these fine writers, journalists and philosophers.

Now, that's just plain silly. Chomsky? Marx? You doth project your own ignorance and freakishly distorted view way too much, Micky ....you do.

There are a hell of a lot of FINE WRITERS in this world....give me a break. You quote those who are narrow in the order of the world view. To fall on point of projected venom against this nation, you have chosen authors, alone? What about the hard working people who worked this soil, built those forts and suffered to build a life on this soil? DO you know America? Do you know Americans in total?

Philosophers, journalists? ---a dime a dozen in the grand scheme of things.

You are limited in scope when it comes to teh grand arena of what is knowledge and freedom, lust for change, and willingness for risk and reform. For the sake of God, step off of your mini pedestal and embrace what it means to be an American. I live in New Mexico, so don't think that to be an American means white male society. Do you understand the bigger picture other than this philosophically and polically sick target that you pronounce in each and every post? You are stuck in the world of rhetoric--- based on something I fail to understand. We are not that simple as  Americans  We are vastly rich in the history of this planet ..this new world. Why can't you open your mind to that? Why narrow your scope to the mindset that stems from some sort of bitterness against FREEDOM and plenty? I would never want to live in a society where we don't have rules and regs. . . guidelines and accountability.

You quote "fine writers"...but you don't see that perhaps they might just be in this world of FINE... for the sake of being called a good writer .....by someone like you.

DO you write for a living? Are you willing to go through the process of re-inventing the world order according to your prescription of communism? If you are, then go for it. Otherwise, open you mind to what else is out there, MTee. There is more to the world than old school socialism/communism.

There's a chance for this world to improve....if we don't take that chance, then we are doomed to die.
Perhaps you have an issue that reaches deep in your inner soul that causes you to hold SUCH DISDAIN for America. . . . again and again, I hear such a tone in your posts.

Move on, dude. Move on.

Times will change...they are a changin all the time.

If we lived in your world....which I am glad we do not....we would not be so very happy.

You want happiness, do you not?

So, look outward to the future of a new world order...but keep Chomsky out of it, please...and for damn sure-Marx.

[Cynthia]

Maybe in a crazy way, it makes some kind of sense.  We'll keep the debate civil and those of us who incur the wrath of our most privileged member will just have to cut him some slack.  A lesson in forbearance, so to speak.  Speaking for myself, I'm sure I could use one, as could some of our other members.  What point is ever served by descending into flame war anyway?

I'm glad you are beginning to understand.

What you don't understand is that if Knute aimed the same barbs at other members of this forum with known infirmities he would be just as gone. Because his attack was personal, it was vengeful and it was mean spirited. We don't do that. And we won't do that. And he can no longer do that, for as long as he is suspended.

God love ya, Bill...damn you are like cream..you rise to the top.

[Xavier_Onassis]

So, look outward to the future of a new world order...but keep Chomsky out of it, please...and for damn sure-Marx.


===============================================
Why keep Chomsky or Marx out of any discussion?  Chomsky is merely a guy with a great sense of perception who has an uncanny ability to see behind the curtain to the bungling Wizards of Oz as they carry out their pitiful attempts to pull the levers, fool the populace, loot their money and force them to work for a pittance.

Why not take into consideration that Marx was one of rthe most astute observers of the pitfalls of Capitalism to date? Marx was wrong about how to rebuild the system, but when it comes to an analysis of how the laws of supply and demand and how economy of scale can be manipulated to benefit the very few rather than the very may that must labor for it, Marx is right on the money.

Sure, Communism as developed in the USSR did not work anywhere as well as planned, though probably better than the Tsar would have done. Cuba does not work, but probably better than another four or five Batistas. But neither does unregulated capitalism work. Ayn Rand was even fuller of bull than Stalin or Fidel. But I don't think she should be ignored , either. Read We the Living, before she became an obsessive jerk, and you will find excellence in her writing.

On the other hand, a knowledge of how capitalism can be manipulated just as we manipulate the law of gravity and the use of levers and gears, well, that DOES work. Denmark has abolished poverty. the PRC has maintained a growth rate of above 10% annually for longer than any capitalist economy in the history of mankind. So a combination of the principles of Socialism and Capitalism can and does work. I would prefer Denmark to the PRC any day, by the way.

Ignore Chomsky and Marx at your peril. The same is true of Alan Greenspan.

[richpo64]

>>Ignore Chomsky and Marx at your peril.<<

I haven't ignored them. I've read them, and dismissed them. Chomsky in particular. An old crank with mother issues. Marx has been proven wrong in real time.  Even countries still following at least some of Marx's philosophy, are moving toward capitalism. China is the prime example.  Those countries that are still communist can't even feed their own people and they attempt escape whenever the opportunity presents itself.

So yes, ignore Chomsky and Marx. The only people left who really believe their drivel are pimply faced college freshmen without dates for the dance.

[Henny]

So yes, ignore Chomsky and Marx. The only people left who really believe their drivel are pimply faced college freshmen without dates for the dance.

Chomsky is quite popular abroad. I don't disagree with everything that he has to say, but really, he's too extreme for my taste. However, what I've found abroad is that people that read Chomsky really don't understand that for a American his point of view goes to the extremes. It just doesn't register with them because they don't have all of the references to balance it out.

But really, one of my favorite examples is when I heard someone quoting David Duke as a legitimate reference on politics. I almost choked to death. And I felt like I could try to tell that person the true David Duke background and yet it still wouldn't really register.

[Plane]

So yes, ignore Chomsky and Marx. The only people left who really believe their drivel are pimply faced college freshmen without dates for the dance.

Chomsky is quite popular abroad. I don't disagree with everything that he has to say, but really, he's too extreme for my taste. However, what I've found abroad is that people that read Chomsky really don't understand that for a American his point of view goes to the extremes. It just doesn't register with them because they don't have all of the references to balance it out.

But really, one of my favorite examples is when I heard someone quoting David Duke as a legitimate reference on politics. I almost choked to death. And I felt like I could try to tell that person the true David Duke background and yet it still wouldn't really register.

That is very likely a problem in both directions , we might take seriously a leader who isn't really leading much .

Is this sort of thing more correctable in the age of internet? Is the filter letting more real data thru?

[Plane]

Why not take into consideration that Marx was one of rthe most astute observers of the pitfalls of Capitalism to date? Marx was wrong about how to rebuild the system, but when it comes to an analysis of how the laws of supply and demand and how economy of scale can be manipulated to benefit the very few rather than the very may that must labor for it, Marx is right on the money.

I think that is very debatable.

Would you like to pick a favorite example of Marx being prescient or sage and start another thread?

[Michael Tee]

The answers to my last post range from the thoughtful to the ridiculous.  Mostly the latter, which just proves the point I was trying to make.  Once you hear Chomsky or Marx dismissed in a one-liner, it's bad enough, but when you get down to the "bad case of acne couldn't get a date to the prom" level - - you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel of ignorance and stupidity that is what makes it possible for a man like G.W. Bush to assume the leadership of the nation.  Naomi Klein of course isn't even mentioned in rebuttal, maybe she didn't have a date for the prom either.

The negative responses were really pitiful, actually, but I didn't expect much better.   I guess some attempt to at least follow the argument, but we get - - the Indians of New Mexico, the optimism and enthusiasm, etc., which of course no one is denying, as no one is denying the millions dead in Vietnam, the lynch mobs, the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis, the ongoing attempts at subjugation.    I guess if you throw a couple hundred more Indians from New Mexico into the equation, it'll all balance out.  Somehow.  I dunno, I keep hoping:  I produce a serious response, and I get back lectures on bitterness, can't you turn that frowny frowny frown into one great big SMILE and remember the Indians of New Mexico???   Huh?  Whaaa . . .?

Well, I DID try.  No one can take that away from me.