Author Topic: Blood on his hands  (Read 13209 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

BSB

  • Guest
Re: Blood on his hands
« Reply #90 on: December 20, 2008, 06:58:43 PM »
Couldn't follow my post huh? Wow.

Well, you can sleep soundly, Michael, knowing you aren't the first homicidal maniac who tried to hide behind the mantra of bringing peace and light to the world. 

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Blood on his hands
« Reply #91 on: December 20, 2008, 08:34:01 PM »
<<While I agree with you that much of the current administrations public parseing on what is torture, and what isn't, is highly regreatful. And, while I agree with you that what took place at Gitmo, and at prisons in Iraq, and Afghanistan, is also highly regreatful. The difference is I don't therefore wish death and distruction on the American people, or any other people. You, on the other hand, are vengeful. That brings into question your take on world events. >>

The torture is the tip of the iceberg.  The millions of dead, from Viet Nam to Indonesia to Latin America to Iraq AND the torture are a heavy load of unavenged atrocities that cries out for retribution.  If America punished its own criminals there would be no world sense that a huge crime or series of crimes requires payback of one kind or another.  The American people are no more or less deserving of massive retaliatory payback than the citizens of Hiroshima or Nagasaki, but both were subjects of regimes that committed unspeakable atrocities and made no effort to punish their own guilty.  Token prosecutions of low-ranking nonentities aside. 

What you are lacking is a sense of outrage.  "Highly regretful" is a ludicrous way of describing America's crimes.  "Regretful" or "regrettable" doesn't begin to cover it and you probably know better.  Whether or not the American people "deserve" actual punishment of some horrific nuclear catastrophe is debateable as I indicated before, but to put the idea before people is to at least indicate the scope of the atrocities - - which Americans are either denying completely, meretriciously rationalizing, or minimizing.  There are enormous wrongs extant and on-going, which deserve active war-crimes prosecutions (at the very highest levels) and massive amends and reparations.  Instead of which, you see this right-wing fascist shit proceeding in sheer ignorance of the facts to assert that nothing much has gone wrong (apart from the inevitable "mistakes" that America makes, which they are gracious enough to admit - - the old "We're not perfect" excuse which any fucking Nazi apologist would be familiar with.)

My feeling on payback is this:  ideally it should fall on the perpetrators themselves, but when it doesn't, it's worse for the crimes to go unavenged than for some type of cosmic retribution to fall on the nation, on the guilty and innocent alike.  It is only when mankind becomes accustomed to the idea that all wrongful actions WILL bring retribution, collective or individual, that the kind of behaviour which characterized the Bush administration will gradually become a thing of the past.  Unavenged crimes just encourage more of the same.


IN all History , what nation has been more just than the USA?

I will not accept as an answer a nation that simply remained uninvolved , to witness evil and do nothing is not innocence , especially for the strong.

The USA has always had a strong isolationist faction , with such worthys as Washington and Lindburg counceling uninvlvement .

But if the isolationists always won the Natzis , Imperialists  or Communists would also be winners as they proceeded unimpeded to dominate the world they would make .

Through both Hard and soft Power the world is being made in the image of the USA, a place where diversity is tolerated. This is a good thing.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Blood on his hands
« Reply #92 on: December 20, 2008, 11:08:49 PM »
<<Well, you can sleep soundly, Michael, knowing you aren't the first homicidal maniac who tried to hide behind the mantra of bringing peace and light to the world.>>

Thanks, BSB, I feel better already.  Were any of the others Canadians?

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Blood on his hands
« Reply #93 on: December 20, 2008, 11:22:30 PM »
plane, I'm not gonna answer any of the questions in your last post, simply because it's all distractionary irrelevance.

I think you oughtta focus a little less on "all of recorded history" and the search for other nations of purportedly greater benevolence and stuff like that and just try to live a little more in the present and the recent (i.e., post-WWII) history because in international affairs, that is all that is really meaningful to the rest of the world.  (Domestically, I don't see how you can separate out the longer view from the present, at least in terms of race relations.)  But in international affairs, most Third World people living today have reason to hate America because of what happened to them and/or their parents and/or grandparents because of the U.S.A.  The longer view of what good the U.S. did in fighting a Civil War over slavery or whatever other real or imaginary good deeds you have reference to does not have the immediacy of a family napalmed, a relative tortured to death, a 40-year military occupation, three generations of life in poverty because of Third World "Development Loans" and other scams, invasions, land grabs, etc.   People whose families were tortured to death by death squads in Guatemala  or by the army in Chile or Argentina don't give a shit about the Green Revolution or even Omaha Beach.

I think you have an idealized concept of the U.S.A. and whenever challenged you fall back on, "We made mistakes, what other nation didn't?" or "We tried too hard to do good," completely mischaracterizing your efforts at world domination or the suppression of national liberation movements as misguided attempts to do good rather than naked  imperialism.

In a nutshell, you are using a fictionalized, unrealistic and long-outdated model of a "good U.S.A." that never was in order to avoid looking at the actual, real history of your country.

BSB

  • Guest
Re: Blood on his hands
« Reply #94 on: December 20, 2008, 11:30:37 PM »
>>Were any of the others Canadians?<<

No, even homicidal maniacs have to walk through life, not around it, to leave any footprints. No one would know if Canada suddenly fell off the edge of the earth.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Blood on his hands
« Reply #95 on: December 20, 2008, 11:44:53 PM »
<<No one would know if Canada suddenly fell off the edge of the earth.>>

Pathetic standard, even for you.  Care to predict world reaction if it was YOUR country that  suddenly fell over the edge?

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Blood on his hands
« Reply #96 on: December 21, 2008, 06:36:53 AM »
<<No one would know if Canada suddenly fell off the edge of the earth.>>

Pathetic standard, even for you.  Care to predict world reaction if it was YOUR country that  suddenly fell over the edge?

Now that is a good question.

I think someone like Saddam or Napolion would have a good chance to run the whole show .

National tecnical means are getting better all the time the ability to resist a despot is being reduced by tecnology.

If there were no organised force in favor of the people, a strongmans government might last forever.

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Blood on his hands
« Reply #97 on: December 21, 2008, 09:41:15 AM »
If there were no organised force in favor of the people, a strongmans government might last forever.

The scary part is that neither the Republicans nor the Democrats seem to want to be that organized force.

The local traffic authority just made two lanes of US I-95 into a toll highway, with a toll of 25 cents to $6.25 for 7 miles. There were no elections on the plan, nor were the authorities elected by anyone. They call this "giving the drivers a choice" of paying extra to spend less time in traffic. There are cameras photographing every plate than goes through the entrance. To use it, you need a transponder, which is registered to your name.

So they know where you are going, and when you are going, and charge you for supplying the information.
I'm sure there is scarier stuff than this, but neither party seems to give a damn.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Blood on his hands
« Reply #98 on: December 23, 2009, 03:35:58 PM »
Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I must have missed this the first time around...

There were no elections on the plan, nor were the authorities elected by anyone. They call this "giving the drivers a choice" of paying extra to spend less time in traffic.

This project was bid on by your state government (elected officials or appointed by elected officials) and the Federal government is funding a large part of it.

I'm guessing you didn't go to any of the numerous public hearings, meetings, and workshops on the subject...
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Blood on his hands
« Reply #99 on: December 24, 2009, 07:04:29 PM »
Holding a public hearing is NOT letting the public decide. I heard about the hearings, but according to the newspaper, no changes suggested by those attended were made.

None of the people planning this at MDX were elected by anyone. The fact that they were appinted by elected people is irrelevant, as the issue was unmentioned in any election.


On the other hand, they added two lanes in each direction, and traffic in the free lanes is usually faster than it was before. Putting the through traffic in the fast lanes apparently kept the same people from weaving and bobbing in and out of lanes.

Of course, they did not need to put a toll on anything to divide the through lanes from the local ones.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Blood on his hands
« Reply #100 on: December 25, 2009, 12:50:14 AM »

Of course, they did not need to put a toll on anything to divide the through lanes from the local ones.

They could have used a tax, but a tax would tax a lot of people who don't need that particular road.

Haveing te work paid for just by the people who will benefit is wrong?

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Blood on his hands
« Reply #101 on: December 26, 2009, 12:35:11 AM »
<<Sorry for the thread necromancy . . . >>

IIRC, "necromancy" means magic or sorcery.  Did you mean "necrophilia," a love of, or attraction to, things that are dead?

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Blood on his hands
« Reply #102 on: December 26, 2009, 10:10:30 AM »
IIRC, "necromancy" means magic or sorcery.  Did you mean "necrophilia," a love of, or attraction to, things that are dead?

thread necromancy   noun

   1. The act of posting in a thread on an Internet Forum, that is already considered dead, and out of discussion.

          Comes from the word thread, the flow of a discussion in a forum, and the word necromancy, the raising of the dead.
http://www.allwords.com/word-thread+necromancy.html
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Blood on his hands
« Reply #103 on: December 26, 2009, 12:04:31 PM »
Thanks, Ami, learned a couple of things I didn't know.  Shoulda looked up "necromancy" before posting, but I didn't think I needed to.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Blood on his hands
« Reply #104 on: December 26, 2009, 01:21:16 PM »
Zombie thread?