Author Topic: Class Struggle  (Read 9162 times)

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Universe Prince

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Re: Class Struggle
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2006, 06:35:10 PM »

First off, the problem is not the relatively small number of middle class individuals who become millionaires.

The problem is the small number of bazillionaires who are becoming billionaires, and hogging the limited  resources.


What limited resources are they hogging? You keep talking about the wealthy hogging resources, but you're rather vague on what resources are being hogged. And what, exactly, is a "bazillionaire" anyway?


It is unhealthy to society for a tiny number of individuals to dominate limited resources.

An inheritence tax on estates of over 10,000,000 of 20 or 30%, indexed to inflation would prove useful in this endeavor, and would also be a source of revenue.


An inheritance tax? Yes, indeed, one of the meanest ideas of all taxes. Someone works for a few decades to build up a small fortune for his family, and you want to tax it because it's not "fair." Sheesh. No, actually, what would be useful is to eliminate the connections between business and government, and to end the dumbass regulations that stifle if not prevent entrepreneurs from creating competition. You do not encourage economic growth for all by punishing those who achieve it.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Plane

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Re: Class Struggle
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2006, 07:15:48 PM »
"The fact is that resources ARE limited, and when one class grows faster than the economy, the other classes lose."
I do not accept this as true , why am I wrong?



It is nice to see a Democrat actually discussing wages and class, but as always the focus is on the ill-defined "middle class."

Quote
There may be a flux in the trend of the rich to get richer , faster at some times than others , but I don't see that our present poor are more poor than the Poor of a century past or two centurys past , or any other set of poor you can find in history , nor do I see that our present rich have more clout than they did a century ago or two or ten.

There is quite a bit of difference in the relationships between the wealthiest citizens and the poorest citizens over the past centuries, especially if you wish to delve a millennia back in time.

Also, just because you percieve no recognizable difference in positions between the poor and wealthy (even if we accept that as true) does not mean that we should accept that as the proper model of society.


I don't think of society haveing a proper model , I think of things as they are with poor and rich being unaviodable phenomina.

We have discovered that we can drain swamps , but after we discovered how to drain swamps we discovered that Swamps are very usefull for produceing Ducks and Fish. You may somehow discover a way of preventing anyone from becomeing rich but soon after you do you may discover that there is a good reason not to do it.

yellow_crane

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Re: Class Struggle
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2006, 07:20:39 PM »
There are a lot of criticisms I could make about that opinion piece by Mr. Webb. But I'll simply ask one question. Why should Mr. Webb's opinions about economic fairness become the law of the land?



 "Why" is an inappropriate interrogative, given the stakes.

"When" is much more appropriate and congruent, as the threat of financial insecurity continues to grow for average Americans like the rim of a sinkhole.   We know we are getting closer to "when" when more and more Americans are realizing that the loss of financial security, and not the neocon-exploited, if not neocon-created, fear of national security, is the true threat.

Americans are emerging from the caves and waking from their carefully induced sleep, as more and more sabotaging critters from the top are being espied and exposed, despite the carefully mananged darkness--megacorporation conglomerate emissary Dick Cheney and his chest-thumping, intimidating cheap trick little cowboy be damned.

If they could not stay the course of successful propagandistic endeavor, somnambulizing the populace with confusing spin and undeniable fear-mongering, why would you think that your question--a typical Grover Norquist mindfuck--should even attempt to be answered?

Chase a stick and you end up with a stick in your mouth, had.

The last election suggests that fewer and fewer are chasing decoy doubletalk Norquist sticks.  (Please do not deny, again, the close relationship between Norquist, Abramoff, and Rove.)

To borrow a fit metaphor from Pat Buchanan,  the villagers are now taking up torches and pitchforks, and moving toward the only few remaining, undownsized, unabsorbed castles left in the land, an inevitable reality that grows exponentially now that middle class Americans are realizing that the next stop, beyond their control, is or soon will be, homelessness.  Now sizable numbers of white collars, previously thinking themselves immune from the slaughter, are finding themselves callously dumped into the same pit they help dig for the corporate cause.

Webb, whom I am sure in no favorite in the I-can-gather-more-crumbs-than-you-can-gather crowd over at Dogfight Attrition Central, is merely one of those now highlighting the realities which the MSM never seems to have time for, given that tossed sticks Brad and Tom and their baby woes take up so much air time.  

I am sure that Mr. Webb, a Democrat from Virginia who realized success only after the blatant racial tumors of his opponent Massa Allen were largely accidentally exposed, is no favorite in your crowd.

In case you haven't noticed it, several 'accidental' exposures and outings are happening.

I would suggest that, remarkably untypical, Virginia blinked, unlike Tennessee, at the odd and sudden appearance of a favorite ploy of the conservative right, the race card.  And if Virginia can blink, the whole nation can blink.  This blinking is more "when" and less "why,"  since the race card was suddenly realized for what it was, finally, by the politically finger-fucked themselves,  a new thing in southern politicking.  In the whole miasma of manufactured race card playing, Virginians, of all southern state residents, saw the ruse and overcame a long-exploited, heritage hook in the mouth tactic employed by Rove and others of his slithering ilk.

America may finally confront its racism when White breads realize that its the econonmy, stupid, thus validating the theory that racism is often manufactured from the sins of elitist excess, and maintained as an instrument of foment as a political tool.  Racism as a political tool, finally realized, may initiate its demise.

"When" is a matter of numbers.  To metaphorize the math, when the Mexicans--who are now capturing most of construction jobs, as well as other industry and service jobs (thereby retiring the bogus conservative mantra--jobs-people-don't-want)--have shouldered in too far, there will eventually be reached a moment of critical mass, when too many Americans, like Virginians but not the recalcitrant Tennesseeans, realize they have simply been had by a conscienceless corporate secret structure, the one Hillary finally labelled.  The reality of this might be realized by considering that the Crips and the Bloods in Calilfornia have joined ranks to fight the growing Mexican gangs.

It has long amused me that for two hundred years, this country sat hoodwinked,  inadequately informed about the Constitution, until the Neocons and supportive Libertarians came along with a play book filled with mindfucks, to show them the error of their ways.  

There can only be legislated "fairness" or "fairness" achieved as our founding forefathers achieved it.

You remember, the tea in the bay thingy.

After all, that is the very nature of realizing that liberty is a fluid reality properly confined within a fair, tacitly agreed upon political construct (not the Libertarian ruse of existing without, or rather outside of, a political construct); it is defined and dependent upon realizing that political temporalism is defined by vigilance against the foxes in the henhouse.


I relish that guys of your temperment, unable to answer beyond the mindfuck metaphors of your megaego narcissism, will soon be found bound atop a bonfire construct.  Well, not really.  I would much rather have you put through a reeducation camp, where, among other things, you realize that no nation can be long moored to individual isolationist greed,  and then be reabsorbed into the mainstream that you have so grieviously insulted, on condition of conviciningly demonstrated contrition, of course.

Such conditional forgivance is far more than what has been extened to those Americans already made destitude by the actions of the greedy few, and their draconian contract you so fervently embrace.
 

Plane

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Re: Class Struggle
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2006, 07:24:34 PM »
"There is quite a bit of difference in the relationships between the wealthiest citizens and the poorest citizens over the past centuries, especially if you wish to delve a millennia back in time."




The posit at the top of the thread is that the difference in relationship is growing into a more negative and more unfair situation.

But , compared to what?


I would not be better off as a poor person in 1950 than as a poor person now ,in the US, nor would I be better off as a poor person in 1050 anywhere on the planet .

The growth of wealth can be seen in other paradgn , try thinking in another box .

Plane

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Re: Class Struggle
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2006, 07:31:10 PM »
"To borrow a fit metaphor from Pat Buchanan,  the villagers are now taking up torches and pitchforks, and moving toward the only few remaining, undownsized, unabsorbed castles left in the land, an inevitable reality that grows exponentially now that middle class Americans are realizing that the next stop, beyond their control, is or soon will be, homelessness. "


I think Why is a good question to answer.

After the castle is burnt and the ranks of homeless are swelled by the butlers and grooms that no longer can work in the castle is a little late to ask "why" or "What did we hope to gain by burning this castle down?"

Perhaps it is inevitable , but perhaps it is also not a good idea because there is no benefit in it.

Universe Prince

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Re: Class Struggle
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2006, 06:42:03 AM »
Good gravy, Crane. You said a lot of stupid things.

I noticed that you railed against asking "why" a few times. I had no idea you were so opposed to analytical inquiry, Crane. Someone wants to make his ideas of economic fairness into law, and you think asking why they should is a "mindfuck"? I was not aware such a simple question would be such a threat. As to why my question should be answered, well, if we are to be an informed populace, seems to me that "why" should be be the very first question asked when someone, regardless of that person's political affiliation, declares his opinion should be made into law. And frankly, other than trying to see how many times you could work the word "mindfuck" into your post, you gave no reasons, as in not any reasons whatever, as to why the "why" question should not be asked.

You also mentioned Grover Norquist a few times as if he were a major factor in the recent elections. Which leads me to wonder what you have been smoking.

Neither Jim Webb nor George Allen were favorites of the libertarians. Both are generally considered less than the brightest bulbs in the box. And yes, I have noticed people on both sides of the political aisle "expose" themselves. Some of them I would have thought to have known better than to hold racist and/or xenophobic ideas. But then these days, fear of others is so politically in vogue, isn't it Mr. "torches and pitchforks"?

It is amusing and interesting that you would bring up the Boston Tea Party in a discussion of someone wanting his economic ideas made into law so that everyone else must obey them. I would ask if you are suggesting people should rise up in active protest to government taxation they consider unfair, but of course you're not. Clearly, however, you seem to have misunderstood the nature of the protest of the Boston Tea Party.

In another bit of amusing linguistic silliness, you talk about "vigilance against the foxes in the henhouse"—one of the core concepts of libertarian politics—and try to deride libertarian ideas in the same sentence. I say try, because there is no such thing as a libertarian idea about existing either without or outside of a political construct. You're just making up complete inanities and then trying to argue that they're inane. You have made what is commonly known as a strawman argument.

"[M]indfuck metaphors of megaego narcissism"? Wow. Nice turn of phrase, I'll give you that. But "emerging from caves" and "torches and pitchforks" and "metaphorize the math", et cetera, are all silly metaphors you've used in your post to prance around without addressing the issues and to serve your own apparent desire to appear moralistically superior. To put it politely, you're a fraud.

As for your bonfire and "reeducation camp" ideas, it's interesting to see your tyrannical side come out so soon after you've talked about the nature of liberty. But of course I thank you for being so "forgiving" as to want to see me forcibly made to agree with you. That is so much more "enlightened" than the libertarian idea of letting people decide for themselves what to think. Who says you liberal folks don't care about personal freedoms?

The most asinine, and perhaps most illuminating, comment in your post you saved for last. After speaking of seeing seeing me and those like me forced into "reeducation camps" you then accuse me of embracing a "draconian contract". Your thinking is truly warped if you think "reeducation camps" is forgiving but allowing people freedom is draconian. Or you're using your thesaurus without knowing what the words mean. Or perhaps some of both.

Whatever the case, you seem not to know what you're talking about. I recommend you rectify that before you start trying to play out of your league again.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Class Struggle
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2006, 03:58:33 PM »
"The fact is that resources ARE limited, and when one class grows faster than the economy, the other classes lose."
I do not accept this as true , why am I wrong?

=========================================================
You are right as rain, Plane.

When a bazillionaire builds his McMansion, new real estate is created, new metal is created for the plumbing, new forests sprout, new energy is created to form thre plastics and glass and carpets. The planet actually GROWS in such as way that there is more acreage available. The purchase of second and third homes has NO IMPACT on the price of other real estate. When a wealthy person drives his Humvee, taking his daughter Becky-Sue to ballet class, NEW OIL RESOURCES ACTUALLY ARE GENERATED!

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Class Struggle
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2006, 11:57:43 PM »
"The fact is that resources ARE limited, and when one class grows faster than the economy, the other classes lose."
I do not accept this as true , why am I wrong?

=========================================================
You are right as rain, Plane.

When a bazillionaire builds his McMansion, new real estate is created, new metal is created for the plumbing, new forests sprout, new energy is created to form thre plastics and glass and carpets. The planet actually GROWS in such as way that there is more acreage available. The purchase of second and third homes has NO IMPACT on the price of other real estate. When a wealthy person drives his Humvee, taking his daughter Becky-Sue to ballet class, NEW OIL RESOURCES ACTUALLY ARE GENERATED!



Are you just now realiseing this?

Only a century ago it was realised that Oil was a resorce , Petrolium was a rather unpopular laxitive before the advent of the Kerosene lamp and the gasoline engine , the demand for light and locomotion went searching for the new resorce.

There is a growing demand for energy that is NOT petrolium based and as this demand grows the likely hood that the answers will be found grow, absent the demand there is little search.

Right now, the most fuel effecient vehicles , electric vehicles and Hydrogen powered vehicles can't be made inexpensive enough for Joe Six Pack to buy , thank God for the rich who are willing to be early adopters and supporters of infant industrys.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Class Struggle
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2006, 02:40:30 AM »
thank God for the rich who are willing to be early adopters and supporters of infant industrys.

=============================================================
Yeah sure, Rupert Murdoch and Dick Cheney have just purchased Hydrogen Fuel cell cars.


THis is nonsense, by the way.

Jimmy Carter put solar power cells on the White House, and Reagan had them stripped off as soon as he was elected.

It would be ever so nice if what you said were even remotely true, but it isn't.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Class Struggle
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2006, 04:14:06 PM »
thank God for the rich who are willing to be early adopters and supporters of infant industrys.

=============================================================
Yeah sure, Rupert Murdoch and Dick Cheney have just purchased Hydrogen Fuel cell cars.


THis is nonsense, by the way.

Jimmy Carter put solar power cells on the White House, and Reagan had them stripped off as soon as he was elected.

It would be ever so nice if what you said were even remotely true, but it isn't.



I think Reagan would have kept the solar water heaters if they had been working.
But in what sense is this not true?
The early adopters of Solar power are already around , but they are not mostly poor.
You can buy an alternative fuel car right now , but it will cost a lot .

I don't think I am satisfied with your rebuttal , I still think that the rich lead to many new resorces.

Plane

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Class Struggle
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2006, 01:24:53 PM »
I think Reagan would have kept the solar water heaters if they had been working.

==================================================
They were working. A solar water heater is not any sort of supertechnical device. It is essentially a grid of copper pipes filled with water, mounted on the roof. They are painted a dark color so as to absorb heat from the Sun. A majority of people in Israel have been using them for years. They were very popular in South Florida until the hurricane of 1960 tore a lot of them off people's roofs. My house once had one.

Reagan not only had the solar water heaters and solar electric devices removed from the roof, he also ended government tax breaks for solar devices of any description. It was done deliberately, to thumb his aged nose at Carter and his "tree-hugger" friends. He also appointed religious wacko James Watt as Sec of the Interior. Watt said that logging national forests was okay, because he thought that that the Apocalypse and Jesus would come before all the redwoods and other trees were gone.

Reagan, of course, was just a figurehead, an actor they brought in to read his part, which he did quite well, despite his impending Altzheimer's. But he was more often than not out to lunch when dealing with such things.

So believe whatever you want. But remember that beliving something really hard doesn't make it true, unless you are in the audience of "Peter Pan". Then you can resurrect Tinkerbelle. Other than that, nada.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Class Struggle
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2006, 01:43:52 PM »
Neither does disbeleiveing something make it untrue.

The first cars were expensive , the first telephones were expensive the first computers were expensive the first cell phones were expensive .


The exceptions are few , the welthy are needed for startup industrys .

_JS

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Re: Class Struggle
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2006, 02:03:44 PM »
Quote
I don't think of society haveing a proper model , I think of things as they are with poor and rich being unaviodable phenomina.

Really? I'm sure you think of society as having improper models, which means by consequence you must believe in some sort of proper model - even if you have not fully developed it.

For example, I bet you do not accept Nazi Germany's model society as a proper model society for us to have. Therefore, there must be elements within a Nazi utopia that you do not accept in your idea of a proper society. If you do not believe in gay marriage or abortion then those would be elements that would not fit into your vision of a proper society.

Therefore I have doubts that you have no belief in a proper societal model.
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Plane

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Re: Class Struggle
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2006, 02:11:34 PM »
Quote
I don't think of society haveing a proper model , I think of things as they are with poor and rich being unaviodable phenomina.

Really? I'm sure you think of society as having improper models, which means by consequence you must believe in some sort of proper model - even if you have not fully developed it.

For example, I bet you do not accept Nazi Germany's model society as a proper model society for us to have. Therefore, there must be elements within a Nazi utopia that you do not accept in your idea of a proper society. If you do not believe in gay marriage or abortion then those would be elements that would not fit into your vision of a proper society.

Therefore I have doubts that you have no belief in a proper societal model.

You have here proven that haveing a government approved model for society can get you in trouble.
How will you prove that not haveing a government approved model for society is a mistake?