Author Topic: Romania Marks 20th Year Since Kommie Kollapse  (Read 15149 times)

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Amianthus

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Re: Romania Marks 20th Year Since Kommie Kollapse
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2009, 10:39:51 AM »
Can you clarify further, Ami? I think it is general understanding that under communism, somehow, Romania was debtless. That is untrue?

From this post, earlier in this thread:

Quote
Despite his increasingly totalitarian rule, Ceauşescu's political independence from the Soviet Union and his protests against the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968 drew the interest of Western powers, who briefly believed he was an anti-Soviet maverick and hoped to create a schism in the Warsaw Pact by funding him. Ceauşescu did not realise that the funding was not always very favorable. Ceauşescu was able to borrow heavily (more than $13 billion) from the West to finance economic development programs, but these loans ultimately devastated the country's financial situation. In an attempt to correct this situation, Ceauşescu decided to eradicate Romania's foreign debts. He organised a referendum and managed to change the constitution, adding a clause that barred Romania from taking foreign debts in the future. The referendum yielded a nearly unanimous "yes" vote.

In the 1980s, Ceauşescu ordered the export of much of the country's agricultural and industrial production in order to repay its debts. The resulting domestic shortages made the everyday life of Romanian citizens a fight for survival as food rationing was introduced and heating, gas and electricity black-outs became the rule. During the 1980s, there was a steady decrease in the living standard, especially the availability and quality of food and general goods in stores. The official explanation was that the country was paying its debts and people accepted the suffering, believing it to be for a short time only and for the ultimate good.

The debt was fully paid in summer 1989, shortly before Ceauşescu was overthrown, but heavy exports continued until the revolution, which took place in December.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Ceau%C5%9Fescu#Foreign_debt
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

BT

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Re: Romania Marks 20th Year Since Kommie Kollapse
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2009, 10:51:51 AM »
Abu Ghraib was a spa compared to this:

Piteşti prison
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The Piteşti prison (Romanian: ?nchisoarea Piteşti) was a penal facility in Piteşti, Romania, best remembered for the brainwashing experiment carried out by Communist authorities in 1949-1952 (also known as Experimentul Piteşti - the "Piteşti Experiment" or Fenomenul Piteşti - the "Piteşti Phenomenon"). The latter was designed as an attempt at violently "reeducating" the mostly young political prisoners, male members of banned groupings such as the National Peasants' and National Liberal parties, as well as those who claimed inspiration from the fascist Iron Guard or Zionist members of the Romanian Jewish community.[1]

The experiment's goal, compliant with the regime's take on Leninism, was for prisoners to discard past political and religious convictions, and, eventually, to alter their personalities to the point of absolute obedience.[2] Estimates for the total number of people passed through the experiment range from 1,000[2] to 5,000.[3] It is considered the largest and most intensive brainwashing torture program in the Eastern bloc.[4]


The prison itself was built at an earlier stage ? according to Eugen Măgirescu, work on it had begun in the late 1930s, under King Carol II, and had been completed during Ion Antonescu's rule (see Romania during World War II).[5] For a while after the proclamation of a Romanian People's Republic, it continued to house primarily those found guilty of misdemeanors.[5]

The early stages of "reeducation" had occurred at the prison in Suceava, being soon adopted in Piteşti and, less violently, in Gherla prison.[6] The group of overseers had been formed from people who had themselves been arrested and found guilty of political crimes, and was headed by Eugen Ţurcanu, a student at the University of Iaşi and former member of the Iron Guard, who had joined the Communist Party before being purged.[7] Ţurcanu, who was probably acting on the orders of Securitate deputy chief Alexandru Nikolski,[8] selected a tight unit of reeducation survivors as his assistants in carrying out political tasks. This group was called the Organizaţia Deţinuţilor cu Convingeri Comuniste (ODCC, "Organization of Convinced Communist Detainees"),[9] and included the future Orthodox priest and dissident Gheorghe Calciu-Dumitreasa and the Jewish Petrică Fux.[10]

The wave of Suceava inmates who had passed through the early stages was sent to Piteşti, where the initially humane treatment became subject to increasing restrictions ? according to Măgirescu, the situation rapidly degenerated in June.[5]
[edit] Stages of "reeducation"

The process begun after that date involved psychological punishment (mainly through humiliation) and physical torture.[11]

Detainees, who were subject to regular and severe beatings, were also required to engage in torturing each other, with the goal of discouraging past loyalties.[12] Guards would force them to attend scheduled or ad-hoc political instruction sessions, on topics such as dialectical materialism and Joseph Stalin's History of the CPSU(B) Short Course, usually accompanied by random violence and encouraged delation (demascare, lit. "unmasking") for various real or invented misdemeanors.[13]

Each victim of the experiment was initially subject to regular interrogation, during which torture was applied as a means to expose intimate details of his life ("external unmasking").[14] Hence, they were required to reveal everything they were thought to have hidden from previous interrogations; hoping to escape torture, many prisoners would confess imaginary misdeeds.[15] The second phase, "internal unmasking", required the tortured to reveal the names of those who had behaved less brutal or somewhat indulgently towards them in detention.[14]

Public humiliation was also enforced, usually at the third stage ("public moral unmasking"),[14] inmates were forced to denounce all their personal beliefs, loyalties, and values. Notably, religious inmates were dressed as figures of Christ, and all others were required to address them insults;[5] they had to blaspheme religious symbols and sacred texts.[9]

The inmates were required to accept the notion that their own family members had various criminal and grotesque features; they were required to author false autobiographies, comprising accounts of deviant behavior.[14] According to Dumitru Bacu: "By injecting gradually into the victim's subconscious information different from what he had always accepted as real and true, by altering and constantly deprecating existing reality and substituting for it a fictitious image, the re-educator at last achieved the final purpose of the unmasking: to make the lie so real to the victim that he would forget what had formerly for him made sense."[16] This led to a "complete reversal, for an indeterminate time, of the values in which the student had always believed".[17]

In addition to physical violence, inmates subject to "reeducation" were supposed to work for exhausting periods in humiliating jobs (for example, cleaning the floor with a rag clenched between the teeth). Malnourished and kept in degrading and unsanitary conditions,[18] inmates were prevented from engaging in contacts with the outside world, and forced to cover their eyes in the few instances where they could walk out of their cells.[5]

It has been argued that techniques used by the ODCC were ultimately derived from Anton Makarenko's controversial pedagogy and penology principles in respect to rehabilitation.[15] On at least one occasion, Makarenko was allegedly cited as inspiration by Ţurcanu himself.[5]

The prison also ensured a preliminary selection for the labor camps at the Danube-Black Sea Canal, Ocnele Mari, and other sites, where squads of former inmates were supposed to extend the experiment.[15]
[edit] Ending and legacy

In 1952, as Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej successfully maneuvered against the Minister of the Interior Teohari Georgescu, the process was stopped by the authorities themselves.[2] The ODCC secretly faced trial for abuse, and over twenty death sentences were handed out (Ţurcanu was held responsible for the murder of 30 prisoners, and the abuse exercised on 780 others);[19] Securitate officials who had overseen the experiment, including Colonel Teodor Sepeanu, were tried the following year ? all were given light sentences, and were freed soon after.[20] Responding to new ideological guidelines, the court concluded that the experiment had been the result of successful infiltration of American and Horia Sima's Iron Guard agents into the Securitate, with the goal of discrediting Romanian law enforcement.[21]

Abandoned and partially in ruin, the building was sold to a construction firm in 1991 (after the Revolution of 1989; several of the facilities have either been torn down or suffered major changes).[3] A memorial was built in front of the prison's entrance.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pite%C5%9Fti_prison

Michael Tee

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Re: Romania Marks 20th Year Since Kommie Kollapse
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2009, 02:19:25 PM »
Apart from beatings, I found absolutely no mention of any specific kind of torture in the account of this prison.  Prisoners are beaten in jails all over the world, sometimes fatally.  Happens here in Canada, happens in Arkansas and Louisiana, and my guess is that there is no place it does not happen.  So I am not going to pretend to be shocked that prisoners were beaten at Pitesti prison.  I would not expect Romanian standards to be anywhere near Canadian or U.S. standards.  Those people are savages. 

Somebody, BTW, should do a little research on the Iron Guard.  They are even worse than Nazis in the kind of atrocities they have perpetrated.  Whatever happened to them in Pitesti prison was just not bad enough.

To call this prison worse than Abu Ghraib is nothing short of mind-boggling.  At Abu Ghraib, prisoners were smothered to death, beaten to death,  savaged by attack dogs, hooded, raped and electrocuted.  90% of the photos of Abu Ghraib STILL haven't been released and the Obama regime seems as determined as its criminal predecessor to keep them locked up forever.  Abu Ghraib was many times worse than this place, as even the article posted appears to indicate.  The psychological, sexual and climate-control abuse at Abu Ghraib, including sleep deprivation and forced sensory overload was equivalent to the physical abuse and torture there. 

Only a brain deadened by relentless American propaganda could even think of comparing this place to Abu Ghraib.

Henny

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Re: Romania Marks 20th Year Since Kommie Kollapse
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2009, 02:39:59 PM »
Can you clarify further, Ami? I think it is general understanding that under communism, somehow, Romania was debtless. That is untrue?

From this post, earlier in this thread:

Quote
Despite his increasingly totalitarian rule, Ceauşescu's political independence from the Soviet Union and his protests against the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968 drew the interest of Western powers, who briefly believed he was an anti-Soviet maverick and hoped to create a schism in the Warsaw Pact by funding him. Ceauşescu did not realise that the funding was not always very favorable. Ceauşescu was able to borrow heavily (more than $13 billion) from the West to finance economic development programs, but these loans ultimately devastated the country's financial situation. In an attempt to correct this situation, Ceauşescu decided to eradicate Romania's foreign debts. He organised a referendum and managed to change the constitution, adding a clause that barred Romania from taking foreign debts in the future. The referendum yielded a nearly unanimous "yes" vote.

In the 1980s, Ceauşescu ordered the export of much of the country's agricultural and industrial production in order to repay its debts. The resulting domestic shortages made the everyday life of Romanian citizens a fight for survival as food rationing was introduced and heating, gas and electricity black-outs became the rule. During the 1980s, there was a steady decrease in the living standard, especially the availability and quality of food and general goods in stores. The official explanation was that the country was paying its debts and people accepted the suffering, believing it to be for a short time only and for the ultimate good.

The debt was fully paid in summer 1989, shortly before Ceauşescu was overthrown, but heavy exports continued until the revolution, which took place in December.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Ceau%C5%9Fescu#Foreign_debt

Right - debtless. The debt was paid off before the regime was overthrown. Which is remarkable.

BT

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Re: Romania Marks 20th Year Since Kommie Kollapse
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2009, 03:29:01 PM »
Quote
Only a brain deadened by relentless American propaganda could even think of comparing this place to Abu Ghraib.

The ODCC secretly faced trial for abuse, and over twenty death sentences were handed out (Ţurcanu was held responsible for the murder of 30 prisoners, and the abuse exercised on 780 others);

And the body count At Abu Ghraib was what?



Amianthus

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Re: Romania Marks 20th Year Since Kommie Kollapse
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2009, 03:49:34 PM »
Right - debtless. The debt was paid off before the regime was overthrown. Which is remarkable.

The propaganda is that it was debtless, however, it was in debt for most of it's existence. It wrote off a lot of debt when formed, then promptly went back into debt, and only cleared it's debts immediately before the regime was overthrown. It spent nearly it's entire existence in debt.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Romania Marks 20th Year Since Kommie Kollapse
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2009, 06:09:07 PM »
<<And the body count At Abu Ghraib was what?>>

Nobody's telling and nobody knows.  Some of the photos released show guards posing with the corpses of their victims, but over 90% of the pictures were never released.

Besides you're not going to consider a Romanian body count seriously are you?  When Ceasescu was in power the body count was close to zero, when his murderers were in power, it suddenly skyrockets to whatever they want it to be.  I'm just surprised that they managed to keep it below the total head count of prisoners.

BT

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Re: Romania Marks 20th Year Since Kommie Kollapse
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2009, 06:39:37 PM »
The torture and murders took place under Ceasescu 's predecessor and the Soviets themselves, and under Communist Party rule.


Plane

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Re: Romania Marks 20th Year Since Kommie Kollapse
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2009, 12:05:50 AM »

"...savaged by attack dogs,..."

Well that one is new, I would guess the main diffrence is that the program of beatings in Roumania was official and government established .
At Abu Garaib the evidence sent a brace of soldiers to jail and got a general fired,  it didn't go on for more than a few months and the death count was a lot lower.

Apples to apples Abu Graib comes off as a much smaller instance of misbehavior except for one thing, as you mentioned, Americans are held to a high standard.

Michael Tee

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Re: Romania Marks 20th Year Since Kommie Kollapse
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2009, 12:12:35 AM »
<<The torture and murders took place under Ceasescu 's predecessor and the Soviets themselves, and under Communist Party rule. >>

For christ sake, we are talking about fucking Romanians.  You think their tortures and murders started under communism?  Under Ceausescu's predecessors?  Under the Soviets?  You obviously don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

Amianthus

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Re: Romania Marks 20th Year Since Kommie Kollapse
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2009, 12:24:14 AM »
For christ sake, we are talking about fucking Romanians.

Yup, subhuman, every one of 'em.

Good thing you're not racist, or we'd hear some REAL bigotry out of you, huh?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Romania Marks 20th Year Since Kommie Kollapse
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2009, 12:28:56 AM »
So now it's "racist" to point out the history of torture in Romanian prisons under the Antonescu and then the Iron Guard regimes? 

You're not just deluded, you're crazy.

Plane

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Re: Romania Marks 20th Year Since Kommie Kollapse
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2009, 12:46:12 AM »
So now it's "racist" to point out the history of torture in Romanian prisons under the Antonescu and then the Iron Guard regimes? 

You're not just deluded, you're crazy.

Yes , was there ever a racist who didn't have anecdotes to tell , testifying of the inferiority of his chosen inferiors?

BT

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Re: Romania Marks 20th Year Since Kommie Kollapse
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2009, 12:56:45 AM »
Quote
For christ sake, we are talking about fucking Romanians.  You think their tortures and murders started under communism?  Under Ceausescu's predecessors?  Under the Soviets?  You obviously don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

What I am talking about is the mistreatment of prisoners under Romanian Communism and supposedly under the watchful eye of the Soviets.

We haven't even talked about the cattle cars loaded with 70k peasants to rural areas of Romania, uprooting families to break any resistance to collectivism.


Michael Tee

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Re: Romania Marks 20th Year Since Kommie Kollapse
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2009, 01:03:41 AM »
<<What I am talking about is the mistreatment of prisoners under Romanian Communism and supposedly under the watchful eye of the Soviets.>>

Which from your own source appeared to consist of beatings no different from those administered in prisons all over the world.  When you attempted to link the mistreatment of Romanian prisoners in Romanian jails by Romanian guards to communism your posting became totally ridiculous.