Truths We Dare Not Speak

[BT]

No you said :

It sounds like a plan for more illegal underground activity to me.

And i think the reason there would be more illegal activity is that there would be a lot of immigrants who did not qualify for legal immigration and they would just come anyway.

And that is just one part of the problem.

Hanson suggests that we set requirements for immigration. One being having a skillset in demand that currently has a shortage in the candidate pool. I don't see that as being any more onerous than applying to a state college where requirements also have to be met before admission.

Where we disagree is your notion that labor is a human right that transcends national borders and i don't think you have offered up any arguments that would change my mind on that.

[sirs]

For the last two years of the eight, the Democrats had control of one house of a bicameral legislature.

For the last two years, Democrats had control of BOTH houses of a bicameral legislature.

And there in lies the source of the pursetrings to the country's spending vs being responsible

[Universe Prince]

No you said :

It sounds like a plan for more illegal underground activity to me.

And i think the reason there would be more illegal activity is that there would be a lot of immigrants who did not qualify for legal immigration and they would just come anyway.

So kinda like now. That is not really a case for accepting his plan.

And that is just one part of the problem.

Hanson suggests that we set requirements for immigration. One being having a skillset in demand that currently has a shortage in the candidate pool. I don't see that as being any more onerous than applying to a state college where requirements also have to be met before admission.

Where we disagree is your notion that labor is a human right that transcends national borders and i don't think you have offered up any arguments that would change my mind on that.

I'm sure I haven't. But you speak of "having a skillset in demand that currently has a shortage in the candidate pool." As decided by whom? I don't see why the government should be trusted with deciding that any more than it should be trusted with deciding what food or goods are in demand and should be produced in what quantities. Which is to say, the government should not be trusted with either one. But I'd be interested in seeing case made for why the government should be deciding such things.

[BT]

So kinda like now. That is not really a case for accepting his plan.

Then don't accept it. However i would be interested in hearing  your arguments in favor of allowing an onslaught of unskilled labor into the country.

I'm sure I haven't. But you speak of "having a skillset in demand that currently has a shortage in the candidate pool." As decided by whom?

The marketplace.

Have recruiting firms show they have exhausted domestic supplies and need to requisition talent from overseas. Since the government controls the immigration process, the requisition goes to them. It's a win-win, recruiting firms are good at evaluating people and the govt is good at pushing paper.

[Universe Prince]

However i would be interested in hearing  your arguments in favor of allowing an onslaught of unskilled labor into the country.

I don't remember taking a position that we need to allow an onslaught of anything. Oh I get it, you're exaggerating to make a point. Gosh, you're so clever.

Did we have an onslaught, an overwhelming outpouring of unskilled labor when immigration was easier? I guess that depends on one's perspective. I'd say no, but others would and did disagree. But let's consider for a moment. Part of the problem is immigrants coming here illegally and staying here. What happened before immigration laws made crossing the border legally more difficult? As best I can determine, a lot of the immigrants came here for a short time, say 4-6 months, and then went home again. They were hired for work (in the marketplace, mind you) they were willing to do, and often the farms and other businesses hiring such temporary workers would look for the same people each year because they learned who would do good work and who would not. So was that an onslaught of unskilled labor? Or was that the order of the marketplace finding people with needed skills without need for government to tell farms and businesses who they could and could not hire?

I'm sure I haven't. But you speak of "having a skillset in demand that currently has a shortage in the candidate pool." As decided by whom?

The marketplace.

Have recruiting firms show they have exhausted domestic supplies and need to requisition talent from overseas. Since the government controls the immigration process, the requisition goes to them. It's a win-win, recruiting firms are good at evaluating people and the govt is good at pushing paper.

I find your description of the process somewhat disturbing. Requisition talent from overseas? Demand people be brought to them for work? And yeah, 'requisition' means to require or demand, so don't tell me you didn't say demand. Aren't you the person who told me labor should not be treated like a physical property/good?

How are recruiting firms to show they have "exhausted domestic supplies"? How would that even be determined? Who sets the standards? This whole thing sounds like a lot of government control and very little actual marketplace evaluations. Your plan takes power away from the marketplace to decide who does and does not get hired and hands it over to the government to decide if a business or recruiting firm is allowed to hire an immigrant. Not to mention the fact that your plan will have allowed the government to interfere with a major part of the marketplace by preventing people from selling their labor freely.

Also, your plan seems like a huge hassle of which only the largest corporations will be able to make use, because this process will require regulations out the wazoo. Who gets hired under what terms and conditions, for how long, by whom. And the net benefit of this is what, exactly?

And your plan is a lose-lose situation. Your plan takes that part of the employment pool out of the reach of smaller businesses and farms, the ones with the most to benefit from it, gives the government more power over the marketplace, and either prevents poorer immigrants from being able to come here and find work to earn money to benefit their families or forces them to go further underground in their quest to provide for their families, which means more black market action and more abuses. The only wins there would be for the politicians and black marketeers who gain more power. Which is not a win for anyone else.

[BT]

I find your description of the process somewhat disturbing. Requisition talent from overseas? Demand people be brought to them for work? And yeah, 'requisition' means to require or demand, so don't tell me you didn't say demand. Aren't you the person who told me labor should not be treated like a physical property/good?

requisition: a written request for something authorized but not made available automatically

try to keep it honest prince.

If Company A is in search of a electrical engineer and they can not find a suitable candidate domestically with the particular skillset they need at the salary level they are willing to pay then they notify their states labor department who in turn notifies the federal Bureau of Labor, who crosschecks the database of foreign applicants who meet these specifications and notifies the company, small or large that they may have a candidate for them. If the candidate is acceptable the company becomes his or her  sponsor. Much like in the old days when legal immigrants needed a sponsor. I see nothing onerous or difficult or exclusionary about this process.

[Plane]

The best reason to controll the borders is to catch criminals as they cross.

Can we purely do that , and allow anyone elese to cross as they pleased?

Or must we stop a lot of people for the sake of catching these few who are dangerous?

[Michael Tee]

<<However i would be interested in hearing  your arguments in favor of allowing an onslaught of unskilled labor into the country. >>

Every one of them needs a pair of shoes on his feet.  Their kids need shoes.  They need a lot of stuff.  And it can all be made in America.

Large-scale immigration will depress wages for unskilled and semi-skilled workers, just the ticket for bringing back the clothing and textile industries to America.  Grow more cotton, sell more cotton.  Get Americans out of the brokerage offices and into the cotton fields, where they belong.  America was built by hard work, back-breaking labour, which gave the people a certain degree of common sense sorely lacking in today's generation of couch potatoes.  You can sell a ruinously expensive foreign war to a generation raised on video-game violence, not to a generation that performs migrant farm labour in order to live.  Who will need mechanical cotton pickers when real live ex-insurance-salesmen are available dirt cheap for the job?

[Religious Dick]

Considering we currently have double-digit unemployment, would somebody like to point out a "market" for labor that can't be accommodated domestically?

[BT]

Every one of them needs a pair of shoes on his feet.  Their kids need shoes.  They need a lot of stuff.  And it can all be made in America.

Or it can be made in their own country of origin and excess stock can be exported to the States.

[Michael Tee]

<<Considering we currently have double-digit unemployment, would somebody like to point out a "market" for labor that can't be accommodated domestically?>>

Yeah, that's the beauty of immigration.  They'll take jobs that Americans are too fat, dumb and lazy to want to bother with.  Same thing in Canada.  There are plenty of jobs in hospitals and kitchens, but guess who takes them?

[Michael Tee]

<<Or it can be made in their own country of origin and excess stock can be exported to the States. >>

Yes, there will always be some who are happy with the status quo.  I was thinking of a way to rebuild North American manufacturing and bring some abandoned factories back to life.  But the Rust Belt has its charms, I guess.  For some of us.

[BT]

Yes, there will always be some who are happy with the status quo.  I was thinking of a way to rebuild North American manufacturing and bring some abandoned factories back to life.  But the Rust Belt has its charms, I guess.  For some of us.

Don't know how you would do that unless you somehow managed to equalize manufacturing costs between third world countries and the US. The US is at a disadvantage because of labor costs and regulatory expenses.

[Michael Tee]

<<Don't know how you would do that unless you somehow managed to equalize manufacturing costs between third world countries and the US. The US is at a disadvantage because of labor costs and regulatory expenses.>>

The problem is Free Trade.  The solution is tariff walls.  For a country with a large domestic market to satisfy, it will work. 

Look at China.  They sell to many, let in only a select few.  Because their production costs are so low, even the countries shut out of their import markets (where they probably couldn't compete anyway) want to buy their stuff.

[BT]

The problem is Free Trade.  The solution is tariff walls.  For a country with a large domestic market to satisfy, it will work. 

I'm not sure if that is much of a solution. But if the wages paid for a pair of shoes are enough to live on in what passes for an American Lifestyle,aided by a tariff wall,  then those jobs would be filled by domestic workers and there is no need for immigrant labor.